If I activate {Gideon, Champion of Justice} second ability and then cast {Clone} choosing him, is Gideon's P/T a set value or is it a */* flexible kind of thing? I think it gets locked in as a set value when you activate the ability, so clone would become an indestructible human soldier named Gideon... With that set value of P/T... And that value would not change when the number of loyalty counters on the original planeswalker changed. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they could also both be on the battlefield because the clone doesn't gain the planeswalker subtype Gideon and the planeswalker isn't legendary when he is in his creature form. Does this all check out?
Quote from: Bop on October 29, 2013, 01:21:13 PM
If I activate {Gideon, Champion of Justice} second ability and then cast {Clone} choosing him, is Gideon's P/T a set value or is it a */* flexible kind of thing? I think it gets locked in as a set value when you activate the ability, so clone would become an indestructible human soldier named Gideon... With that set value of P/T... And that value would not change when the number of loyalty counters on the original planeswalker changed. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they could also both be on the battlefield because the clone doesn't gain the planeswalker subtype Gideon and the planeswalker isn't legendary when he is in his creature form. Does this all check out?
You'd have to sac one though bc of the legendary rule right?
You'll get another planeswalker named Gideon, Champion of Justice and have to put one in your graveyard. Clone won't be a creature.
The answer lies in how copy effects work.
Quote706.2
When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics
[...]
The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
Because Gideon's ability is a type-changing effect, it won't be copied. That means you'll just get another planeswalker, not a creature.
Quote from: Noblellama on October 29, 2013, 03:02:08 PM
So clone ignites it's spark and ascends to planeswalker status by killing Gideon?
Or maybe Gideon has to prove himself by killing clone?
But wouldn't clone die due to no loyalty?
Only the strong surive!
Quote from: Anoobass on October 29, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
But wouldn't clone die due to no loyalty?
No. It'll come in with 4 loyalty counters.
Quote706.5. An object that enters the battlefield "as a copy" or "that's a copy" of another object becomes a copy as it enters the battlefield. It doesn't enter the battlefield, and then become a copy of that permanent. If the text that's being copied includes any abilities that replace the enters-the-battlefield event (such as "enters the battlefield with" or "as [this] enters the battlefield" abilities), those abilities will take effect.
Quote306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect.
Wow I totally didn't think it would come in as a planeswalker... Hmm seems odd.