In a casual multiplayer game my worldspine wurm was destroyed by a doom blade and before the doom blade resolved another player targeted the worldspine wurm with adarkar valkyrie's ability. An argument ensued as my opponent was adamant that he should get control of the worldspine wurm and I was adamant that it gets shuffled into my library. We couldn't find a ruling and my reasoning was that even though the valkyrie's ability can be used to interrupt the wurm's, the wurm's ability still resolves. Can anyone help???
{Worldspine Worm}
{Doomblade}
{Adarkar Valkyrie}
My default with these is to look at logics of the words on the cards when a clear ruling can't be reached. So Worldspine says when it enters the graveyard, the Angel says when it dies. I would say her ability takes precedence as the dying happens the zone change.
That's just how I would lay out the ruling with and actual ruling.
Well, "enters the graveyard from the battlefield" and "dies" are the exact same thing. And they aren't replacement effects either (like {Leyline of the void} that replace going to the grave with something else). They are both triggers that occur when the card hits the grave.
I want to say that this situation would cause the triggers to go on the stack in AP-NAP order, meaning the trigger that resolves first will depend on whose turn it is.
But I'm not 100% sure. Let me do a little digging and get a ruling on this for you.
Edit: yup, it's an AP-NAP situation. Both are definitely triggered abilities, and...
603.3b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=603.3b): If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
If it's your turn, APNAP means the valkyrie's ability resolves first because it is on top of the wurm's trigger on the stack. Therefore, your opponent gains control of it.
If it's not your turn however, APNAP means the wurm shuffles back in first.
Edit: If it's not your turn your position on the APNAP order would matter i.e. If the opponent whose valkyrie it is goes before (shuffle) or after you (lose control). This is for multiplayer only; duels follow the above result.
As above. Also it would seem that you would still get the three 5/5 tokens regardless of when the trigger resolved, as that doesn't require for the wurm to be in the graveyard for it to happen, just that it went there at some stage.
That makes sense. My logic may be letting me down here, but wouldn't that mean that it ends up shuffled into my library regardless? If the Valkyrie's ability resolves first, wouldn't the wurm's ability still resolve after? So the opponent does indeed gain control, but then as soon as priority is passed it gets shuffled into my library (regardless of who has control of it?). And if the wurm's ability resolves first it gets shuffled in, and the valkyrie's ability no longer has a valid target so it just 'fizzles out' (for lack of a better term)? Or would the act of taking it from my graveyard to put into the opponents battlefield mean it changes zones therefore the wurm's ability can no longer target it? I hadn't even considered that possibility. I hope I haven't confused everyone :s
By the way thank you steerspike for linking the cards in my original post. I was so busy trying to word it right i completely forgot to do it!
Are you sure dying and entering the graveyard are the same thing? Seems more logical to me that they'd have to die first to Be able to enter that graveyard O.o I'd assume the valkerie's ability would happen before the worm's
what used to be "when this creature enters the graveyard from play/the battlefield" has been shorterned officialy to "when this creature dies". They chose to update oracle to make it shorter, but they are the same.
Now what happens in a multi player game... when both triggers happen but neither triggers are caused by an active player?
My interpretation of events: angle resolves first and worm enters the bf under your opponents control then worm effect resolves and he gets shuffled into your lib.
Worm resolves first and gets shuffled into the library, then angel resolves and pulls it into the bf under your opponents control. The angel targets the creature, but as soon as it triggers it no longer needs a target. It just pulls the card into the bf from whatever zone it exists in (even exile).
You get the token creatures in either scenario.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on October 28, 2013, 09:24:17 AM
By the way thank you steerspike for linking the cards in my original post. I was so busy trying to word it right i completely forgot to do it!
No problem!
Quote from: Pleeb on October 28, 2013, 01:29:41 PM
My interpretation of events: angle resolves first and worm enters the bf under your opponents control then worm effect resolves and he gets shuffled into your lib.
Worm resolves first and gets shuffled into the library, then angel resolves and pulls it into the bf under your opponents control. The angel targets the creature, but as soon as it triggers it no longer needs a target. It just pulls the card into the bf from whatever zone it exists in (even exile).
You get the token creatures in either scenario.
It doesn't work like that.
A card that changes zones has no memory of its previous self. So in this example, both abilities trigger when the wurm hits the graveyard. Once the wurm gets shuffled back or put back into play, it has changed zones and therefore is treated as a new and separate entity from its previous self. This means that any subsequent abilities on the stack won't affect it. Therefore whichever trigger resolves first wins UNLESS the card doesn't change zones.
APNAP applies in turn order. This makes two possible resolutions.
Turn order 1
Doom blade opponent
Worldspine controller
Valkyrie opponent
Valkyrie takes it because it was the last thing on the stack.
Turn order 2
Doom blade opponent
Valkyrie opponent
Worldspine controller
Worldspine shuffles in because it was the last on the stack.
This is all assuming it is doom blader's turn, but I hope you get the point.
Because there are more than two players involved here it is important to clarify whoever's turn is the furthest from the current turn wins any trigger wars.
Same thing. Whoevers turn is not right now wins.
You can use {strionic resonator} to copy your trigger and put your copy on top of everything else to make you win the trigger war regardless of turn order.
I think we may all be wrong.
400.6. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=400.6.): If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller -- or its owner if it has no controller -- chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Apparently whoever controls the worm gets to decide which replacement effect to use.
From a previous question about {Nissa's Chosen} and {Rest in Peace}, I think the ruling only applies to replacement effects, which don't use the stack. Correct me if I am wrong.
Since the wurm has to actually hit the graveyard for both triggers and is not a replacement effect, I don't think this rule is applied like that. The triggers should still work in stack order.
Replacement effect is not a trigger. That is a different situation.
"Instead" indicates a replacement where as "at", "when", or "whenever" is usually used for a trigger.
I feel the need to clarify that it was my turn when all the shenanigans began. But it would still be good to understand what would happen in any event.
Quote from: Pleeb on October 28, 2013, 08:47:14 PM
I think we may all be wrong.
400.6. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=400.6.): If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller -- or its owner if it has no controller -- chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Apparently whoever controls the worm gets to decide which replacement effect to use.
To clarify why this is not the case:
1) as mentioned previously, these are NOT replacement effects. They are triggered abilities.
2) "see if it has any abilities that affect the move" refers to currently active abilities that are affecting the board state, NOT any other things on the stack. Other things on the stack have no effect yet, they haven't resolved. It's referring to things like trying use {Reanimate} on {Dryad Arbor} with {Worms of the Earth} in play - the reanimate is causing a land to attempt to change zones, but Worms is affecting the move by saying "Um, no. Go away."
I stand firm with my post on page 1. This is an AP-NAP situation, and turn/priority order answers it all.
I'm inclined to agree with you Gorzo. The only other question I have is if the Valkyrie's ability resolves first does the wurm's ability still resolve? And if the wurm's ability resolves first does that mean the Valkyrie's cannot? Ok that's two questions but I'm sure you get the point :)
Okay time to break out some official mtg rules
400.7. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=400.7.): An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
400.7d (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=400.7d): Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.
So with all of this, whichever ability resolves first will win. The Valkyrie moves the object to another zone and it forgets its graveyard self. If the wurm resolves first putting it into a hidden zone and the Valkyrie has no idea where it is.
As first line of his post states doom blade never resolved so Valkyrie has no valid target to trigger ability yet however that's not the ruling question it's the way the apnap ruling works in a FFA consisting of 3 or more players I would state that the nap would be same as determining active player it would be whoever turns next is the first non-active player. How ever her is example of stack as I understand it ATM
Stack as stated in first post
Doom blade --target wurm
Valkyrie ability trigger targets wurm not a valid target as wurm is not dead yet
Valkyrie fizezels
Blade resolves killing wurm
New stack
Wurm death ability triggers spawning tokens.
However argument over wurm death trigger and Valkyrie would be wurm trigger hits stack making owner of wurm the active player in the trigger the Valkyrie trigger woul hit the stack and resolve first meaning wurm would eke enter the field then get buried into your deck.
The first post states that the valkyrie is activated before {Doom Blade} resolves, NOT that it doesn't resolve. The valkyrie can't target the wurm after it dies anyway because it becomes a creature card in the graveyard and not a creature.
What the stack WOULD look like is:
(From bottom to top)
{Doom Blade}
Valkyrie ability
Valkyrie ability resolves, {Doom Blade} resolves and kills the wurm.
Death of wurm triggers both valkyrie and wurm's abilities. Stack now depends on APNAP order.
Both abilities cause the wurm to change zones i.e. It enters the new zone as a new version of itself. The subsequent ability on the stack that targeted the old wurm can't find the old wurm anymore, so it fizzles.
Edit: the tokens will spawn regardless of which ability goes through as it is only dependent on the wurm dying.