Are patents possible under iMtG Law? Is the current US patent law compatible with iMtG Law?
I dont see why not...
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
I believe that is legal under imtg law and US law
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 11, 2013, 05:02:19 PM
I believe that is legal under imtg law and US law
Can you prove it though?
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 11, 2013, 05:02:19 PM
I believe that is legal under imtg law and US law
Can you prove it though?
Give me a couple mins and ill find you a resource :)
What exactly is your concern?
Under Article One, Section 8(8 ) of the US Constitution,
Quote
The Congress shall have power...To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
Based on this definition, you get a patent with a time limit, so I think you would be safe.
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
They exist to protect the intellectual property of infividuals.They don't stop you from having the same ideas, but they do stop you from claiming them as your own and all the benefits that may come from them.
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
They exist to protect the intellectual property of infividuals.They don't stop you from having the same ideas, but they do stop you from claiming them as your own and all the benefits that may come from them.
Sounds extremely unnatural to me. Just because somebody invented a wheel before me I have to pay him for the privilege of creating a wheel myself? Why? Ideas such as wheel are not created but discovered.
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
They exist to protect the intellectual property of infividuals.They don't stop you from having the same ideas, but they do stop you from claiming them as your own and all the benefits that may come from them.
Sounds extremely unnatural to me. Just because somebody invented a wheel before me I have to pay him for the privilege of creating a wheel myself? Why? Ideas such as wheel are not created but discovered.
No, you just have to create a different wheel than him.
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
They exist to protect the intellectual property of infividuals.They don't stop you from having the same ideas, but they do stop you from claiming them as your own and all the benefits that may come from them.
Sounds extremely unnatural to me. Just because somebody invented a wheel before me I have to pay him for the privilege of creating a wheel myself? Why? Ideas such as wheel are not created but discovered.
No, you just have to create a different wheel than him.
Exactly, it is a little strange but you can find more info here. www.uspto.gov
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: #noided on August 11, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 11, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Perhaps because preventing me from having the same idea as yours is doing something I don't want to be done to me?
They exist to protect the intellectual property of infividuals.They don't stop you from having the same ideas, but they do stop you from claiming them as your own and all the benefits that may come from them.
Sounds extremely unnatural to me. Just because somebody invented a wheel before me I have to pay him for the privilege of creating a wheel myself? Why? Ideas such as wheel are not created but discovered.
No, you just have to create a different wheel than him.
Every wheel I create will be different. The idea of wheel is the same though.
A wheel is a tougher example. Take a car engine for example. I get it patented, this protects my idea of THIS engine. Someone else is free to make a different engine such as with more cylinders, fuel injection etc.
In cases of things like wheels, they are not protected under any such copy rights. Also, there is a concept of "Common law copyright". It argues that copyright is a natural right and its creators are therefore entitled to the same protections anyone would be in regard to tangible and real property.
While I believe there is far too much silliness involved with patent trolling, especially involving patented bits of code that most couldn't possible use without infringing someone. Companies patenting programmers codes without them knowing. It serves to stifle innovation - in opposition to the spirit of the law (to motivate people to have new ideas).
The government shouldn't be involved, there should be common law and I believe those things must be protected. Piotr is right though, it isn't quite intuitive. But neither is something like a golf course. You took a whole bunch of land on the planet earth, and then said that its yours, and only for certain people to hit a ball into a hole...I understand its property, but something does not sit right with me.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 11, 2013, 08:03:55 PM
In cases of things like wheels, they are not protected under any such copy rights.
Where is the line drawn? What's the logic?
I am not familiar enough to know where the line is draw. It'd be unfair for me to speculate.
I'm afraid that in the current patent law the line is drawn on a whim without any specific logical reason. Why one wheel is not patentable but a combination of 5 wheels is?
Piotr lets say you invented something huge, like a jet pack. I heard you did it, so I sent someone to steal your ideas. They are mine now, I will profit like mad and no one will listen to you because you have no proof you made it. Do I think patents can be stupid? Sure, as mentioned companies will patent things as there's when workers made them. However it is there as a saftey net to stop theft.
Quote from: Vyse on August 12, 2013, 10:15:38 AM
Piotr lets say you invented something huge, like a jet pack. I heard you did it, so I sent someone to steal your ideas. They are mine now, I will profit like mad and no one will listen to you because you have no proof you made it. Do I think patents can be stupid? Sure, as mentioned companies will patent things as there's when workers made them. However it is there as a saftey net to stop theft.
I'm not convinced at all. How did you hear about my jet pack?
Corporate espionage
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 12, 2013, 12:11:55 PM
Corporate espionage
This is illegal under 'do not steal' and there is no need to use patent laws of any kind to solve this example. Next please.
Of course it's illegal but does that stop people from doing it? Just trying to play devils advocate here
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 12, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
Of course it's illegal but does that stop people from doing it? Just trying to play devils advocate here
If one law didn't stop them, what makes you think the other will?
Quote from: Piotr on August 12, 2013, 12:27:44 PM
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 12, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
Of course it's illegal but does that stop people from doing it? Just trying to play devils advocate here
If one law didn't stop them, what makes you think the other will?
That's kind of my point. I DON'T expect either law to stop them. If someone wants to behave in a criminal manner, no amount of laws will deter them
Preventing me from having certain idea by putting this idea in some safe place with limited public access is an obvious infringement of my freedom to think, it is not something I want to be done to me. I believe there are many others who wouldn't want their ideas prevented in this way. Current US patent law is not compatible with iMtG Law.
Except it isn't preventing you from thinking. You just need a slightly modified idea or wait until the patent runs out. Although I can see what you're saying
I elaborated a bit more here: http://ultimatelaw.org/examples/patents.html
Ok, now I see a bit more clearly what you are getting at; and for me, I half agree and half don't with patent laws. There's a lot of grey areas
Quote from: EvACiDe on August 12, 2013, 02:22:57 PM
Ok, now I see a bit more clearly what you are getting at; and for me, I half agree and half don't with patent laws. There's a lot of grey areas
Can I have an example of grey area please?
Well it's kind of like the wheel example we were previously discussing. And like you said, where is the line drawn? That's what I meant by grey areas.
(IMO) The main point of patent laws is to encourage research and betterment of products. If I were to invest a billion dollars into researching and developed a cure for cancer, it is only fair that I be the only one allowed to sell the cure for at least a few years so that I may recoup (or at least attempt to recoup) the billion dollars I invested. If I were not allowed a short period to recoup the money there would be no reason to invest the billions because I would end up losing money because all of my competitor's would sell the same product at lower prices (my price driven up by the size of the investment into research.)
That being said, patents are not compatible with iMTG Law because of the "Do not lie" and "Do not steal" rules, but are still very necessary in real life were one of the main devices used by law makers is deceit.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 12, 2013, 06:03:35 PM
(IMO) The main point of patent laws is to encourage research and betterment of products. If I were to invest a billion dollars into researching and developed a cure for cancer, it is only fair that I be the only one allowed to sell the cure for at least a few years so that I may recoup (or at least attempt to recoup) the billion dollars I invested. If I were not allowed a short period to recoup the money there would be no reason to invest the billions because I would end up losing money because all of my competitor's would sell the same product at lower prices (my price driven up by the size of the investment into research.)
That being said, patents are not compatible with iMTG Law because of the "Do not lie" and "Do not steal" rules, but are still very necessary in real life were one of the main devices used by law makers is deceit.
The main point of socialism is to provide working man with better life. It brings misery instead, and enriches the crooks and lazy people. I don't care what the point of patent laws are, I'm interested in the practical result. The progress in medicine and many other areas is unsatisfactory, patents do not work.
No. it is not fair. It is only fair if you keep the secret of cure of cancer. Making it public and claiming that no one but you can produce it is pure evil.
Patents are not required.
Quote from: Piotr on August 12, 2013, 06:13:25 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 12, 2013, 06:03:35 PM
(IMO) The main point of patent laws is to encourage research and betterment of products. If I were to invest a billion dollars into researching and developed a cure for cancer, it is only fair that I be the only one allowed to sell the cure for at least a few years so that I may recoup (or at least attempt to recoup) the billion dollars I invested. If I were not allowed a short period to recoup the money there would be no reason to invest the billions because I would end up losing money because all of my competitor's would sell the same product at lower prices (my price driven up by the size of the investment into research.)
That being said, patents are not compatible with iMTG Law because of the "Do not lie" and "Do not steal" rules, but are still very necessary in real life were one of the main devices used by law makers is deceit.
The main point of socialism is to provide working man with better life. It brings misery instead, and enriches the crooks and lazy people. I don't care what the point of patent laws are, I'm interested in the practical result. The progress in medicine and many other areas is unsatisfactory, patents do not work.
No. it is not fair. It is only fair if you keep the secret of cure of cancer. Making it public and claiming that no one but you can produce it is pure evil.
Patents are not required.
But if I knew that after spending a billion dollars anyone could just take the knowledge and sell it for them self, why would I invest the billion dollars? Also why the rant on socialism?
If you don't believe it is worth it, don't invest. Doesn't change a thing as we have no cure for cancer anyway, mainly because for the big pharma it makes more money to exploit the patent system rather than invest in new research.
Socialism is a prime example of something which was arguably intended to do good, but it does evil. Same for patents.