Well guys, we all know those touchy subjects that there are two extremes, and passivity. We have those extremes who support, and extremes who hate. Then the ones that don't care.
We have three sides, which one are you.
Our first touchy subject, is homosexual marriage, or homosexuality in general. We need a good political debate, because we haven't had one in awhile.
Please do not give negative karma because people are asserting their opinion.
I will not assert my opinion yet, I will wait for later in the debate. Please have fun! :)
Love is love. People put too much importance on being married. i think it's being together that's important. If a couple wants to get married, then I say let them.
Don't get me started on homophobic s.
Being raised in a Christian family I was brought up to think it is a sin. However, knowing several people as freinds or neighbors and such, I don't feel as though I have the right to say "what you do or think is bad." The same could be said of me, I'm almost 21, I still live with my father. I work at most 30 hours a week and the major thing that I do all day is mast...I mean play video games. Now from another prospective, I'm a dead beat kid, going nowhere in life, still mooching off someone who loves me enough to treat me well. I'm a good kid, when I'm asked to mow the lawn, I may put it off for a couple days, but I do it in a reasonable amount of time. I don't drink or smoke, cigarettes or anything else, but I still have no plan. Now this has gotten a little off topic but my point remains, I don't have the right to tell anyone other than myself what is right and wrong. Plain and simple.
Anoobass
Who am I to say you can't love someone? Like it or not homosexuality had been seen in nature in primates and many other species, so don't give me the whole "unnatural" bolagna.
You can also scream until your throat is hoarse about your bible, but the testament that contained said verses also tell you to stone kids to death, beat women, and offer whole oxes as sacrifice to your lord.
That being said I don't care for pride parades or huge homosexual movements, but like it was summed up so nicely earlier, love is love. I like everyone's response so far, awesome thread I'm thinking.
I say do what you want to do, it doesn't really concern me, if that's the way you are I respect that, this goes for many things in life; sexuality, religion, taste in music (that one I'm not so respectful on, I like to bash the genres I hate), etc. there are two kinds of people in this world, respectful and disrespectful, Anoobass brought up religion, being a respectful atheist I say he is free to believe what he wants, were I a disrespectful athiest I would probably tell him that he/his beliefs were stupid, it works both ways too, if he is disrespectful he may tell me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in god or try to cram his religion down my throat (at which point I would become unpleasant), but respectfully each to his/her own, live how you want to live
Off topic, I'm not Christian, I was raised Christian, I don't follow it because I don't agree with certain things. My father does though so it is still a Christian household.
I've always been one of those kinds that just doesn't give a damn. I'm against gay marriage, but if it happens, oh well, not like I was going to stop it (or even try to) in the first place. I've always stayed away from news and .politics. because I don't want to be bothered by it. If something affects me, that's good to know. If not, why should I care? If gays are allowed to be married, it's not going to impede on my life, so whatever. I'll be unhappy about for a couple seconds and get over it. I realize that I'm coming across as a selfish hermit, but I gotta look at it realistically.
I'd like to think there's something between extreme and passive. I have family members and friends who are gay, and I care and believe that they deserve every single thing that I am able to do as a straight person, but I'd hardly call myself extreme. I care, and I have my beliefs, but I in no way disapprove of those who disagree with me. I may disagree with them, I may even flat-out dislike everything about it, but I have no right to make someone believe my way just because I like my way better.
Im athiest, and i guess im one of those people that support it, but at the same time doesnt really care, over here in australia im pretty sure its legal, but if im wrong, then oh well, lol.
Marriage should not be regulated by government.
Quote from: Anoobass on July 14, 2013, 02:12:04 AM
Off topic, I'm not Christian, I was raised Christian, I don't follow it because I don't agree with certain things. My father does though so it is still a Christian household.
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding
Quote from: Piotr on July 14, 2013, 10:44:06 AM
Marriage should not be regulated by government.
It is unconstitutional.
"Every man wascreatedequal."
Not every white man, not every straight man, every man. And with women now having the same rights as men, that goes for women too.
I was raised in a conservative Christian climate and that has shaped my moral and ethical adult views. It is because of my Christian moral views that I feel love and acceptance of homosexuals is paramount regardless of my or anyone else's views on their lifestyle. It is because of my Christian ethics that I feel the government has no place in this discussion (marriage has and should remain a social and religious agreement). I'm not sure if it is because of, or despite, my conservative heritage that I appreciate multiple sides to this issue. My views on gay rights aside, I am dismayed that many liberal acquaintances assume that an anti-homosexual stance is somehow morally reprehensible. Both sides have valid points but I hope (probably in vain) that in the rush to accept, liberals remember to show tolerance to those who are not comfortable with homosexuality.
I think all forms of bounding your life to another should be legal. As long as they both agree. I just don't agree with these bonds getting tax reductions, or any money reductions
Really don't care what people do behind closed doors. If they are all consenting adults good for them.
Not a big fan of meeting someone and there first thing they tell me after their name is that they are gay.
This isn't making a mockery of it! It's constitutionally correct , isn't it? 😉
Quote from: Taysby on July 14, 2013, 05:37:48 PM
I agree that you should care for someone even if they are gay.
However, marriage is for family raising. There are traits that men have and traits that women have to raise a child. If two men raise a child, they won't experience any motherly traits. To allow gay people to get married is a desecration of marriage and makes a mockery of it.
If gay people just want to live together, I'm perfectly ok with it. If they want the same benefits as married people, they can go to their attorney and get documents written up to get those benefits. They have no reason to need to get married and make a mockery of it.
What if a man and a woman want to get married, but they don't ever want kids? That is very common. By your logic, they should never be allowed to be married to one another. True or false?
We wouldn't have this problem if government didnt interfere.
Agreed. My church has long been a watchdog for religious freedoms. It seems important for any religious institution to guard against state interference in issues like marriage. This is why I am baffled when I hear about Christian groups pressuring the government to take a stance on gay marriage (or any other issue for that matter). That is a foolish double standard and a dangerous precedent to establish. Don't Christians remember why many of their religious forebears established colonies here? The government should fulfill its responsibilities; set up roads, build an army, provide parks, and yes, even tax me so I can enjoy those privileges. But don't meddle in family affairs like marriage.
My opinion is that if that's you thing that's your thing............ Just keep your "thing" away from me. Doesn't bother me until you don't respect my personal boundaries. Until then, keep on keeping on.
I personally do not agree with it. Probably from being raised in a baptist family, and still agreeing with the beliefs. I do honestly believe you will go to hell for being homosexual. However! I still have gay friends, love the person not the sin. I also wish to keep the displays of gay love (eating each others face off while making out) in a private place. Aka away from me.
Quote from: Piotr on July 15, 2013, 04:16:05 AM
We wouldn't have this problem if government didnt interfere.
But the governments have to. Marriage affects taxes and things like that. The government shouldn't care if you get married religiously, but if it the marriage has to do with how taxes are paid, then it is a government problem.
Quote from: Taysby on July 16, 2013, 10:56:15 AM
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on July 14, 2013, 05:56:49 PM
Quote from: Taysby on July 14, 2013, 05:37:48 PM
I agree that you should care for someone even if they are gay.
However, marriage is for family raising. There are traits that men have and traits that women have to raise a child. If two men raise a child, they won't experience any motherly traits. To allow gay people to get married is a desecration of marriage and makes a mockery of it.
If gay people just want to live together, I'm perfectly ok with it. If they want the same benefits as married people, they can go to their attorney and get documents written up to get those benefits. They have no reason to need to get married and make a mockery of it.
What if a man and a woman want to get married, but they don't ever want kids? That is very common. By your logic, they should never be allowed to be married to one another. True or false?
Oftentimes, people change their mind after getting married, or just plain have accidents. ;)
Way to not answer the question ;)
Quote from: Gleemax on July 16, 2013, 11:04:29 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 15, 2013, 04:16:05 AM
We wouldn't have this problem if government didnt interfere.
But the governments have to. Marriage affects taxes and things like that. The government shouldn't care if you get married religiously, but if it the marriage has to do with how taxes are paid, then it is a government problem.
No they don't have to. Taxation should be the same for everyone, otherwise equality under the law is an empty slogan.
The only reason that gay marriage is because of marriage being considered sacred in the eyes of the church and unfortunately this has some how influenced voters. In the end marriage is about love not about gender or race or anything like that I find it stupid to deny people's happiness over something that shouldn't really matter don't deny them happiness because of what you may think is wrong (I'm sorry if this comes of as offensive to anyone this is just my point of view on this subject)
The problem is that what exactly is "marriage" and what it implies varies from person to person
It hardly does. Marriage is and always was a formal union between man and woman. What certain lobbyists are trying to do is to change the meaning of the word. 1984 anyone? :p
Saying its ok to deny marriage rights to gay people is ignorant. It's akin to saying you have to be a white male land owner that can vote. We are doing the same thing we did by denying black people their rights. Exact same thing just with a different group of people.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 16, 2013, 10:18:38 PM
Saying its ok to deny marriage rights to gay people is ignorant. It's akin to saying you have to be a white male land owner that can vote. We are doing the same thing we did by denying black people their rights. Exact same thing just with a different group of people.
Marriage is a formal union of man and woman. It is ignorant and moronic to say that anyone is denying marriage to sexual deviants, by the same logic we are denying marriage to trees.
Marriage is sacred to all Christians because it's a sign of union under God. Saying that I am a Christian and this whole argument comes down to the government having no place in this and homosexuality is a sin. This nation was founded on Christian beliefs. Why are we straying from them now? I don't hate anyone who is homosexual, I act with many many gays and I find that type of lifestyle disgusting but i still consider then friends and they know I dislike that lifestyle. People try to turn this into a Hate discussion but it's about love. I love you enough not to want to see you live eternity in Hell so yes I will do everything in my power to keep you from that fate.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 16, 2013, 10:18:38 PM
Saying its ok to deny marriage rights to gay people is ignorant. It's akin to saying you have to be a white male land owner that can vote. We are doing the same thing we did by denying black people their rights. Exact same thing just with a different group of people.
It is ignorant to say that any group of people have any right whatsoever to decide fate of other people by voting. Democracy is an evil system where majority is a tyrant over minority. Get it to your heads, people, you have no right to tell me what I should do just because there's more of you than me. Democracy is evil and violates iMtG law under false pretences.
Why is it ok to treat people differently? It's not by any means. We are all people no matter what. You can't deny people their rights. By your argument you're saying that you agree with denying women and minorities their rights just because they aren't white males. Same issue different context. We as a society have no place denying that.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 11:08:38 AMBy your argument you're saying that you agree with denying women and minorities their rights just because they aren't white males.
Stop putting words in my mouth or you will say good bye to this forum.
Just because men and women have different outward appearances doesn't mean they aren't different. People that's all they are. From your argument I could treat someone differently because they don't wear the same clothes I do or because their taste in music is different.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 01:30:41 PMFrom your argument I could treat someone differently because they don't wear the same clothes I do or because their taste in music is different.
Of course you can. Are you saying you cannot?
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
We have the right and ability to do whatever we want. You just choose not to do certain things. I believe that's what he meant.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
Common sense.
Quote from: Piotr on July 17, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
Common sense.
So it's common sense to discriminate?
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 05:36:15 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 17, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
Common sense.
So it's common sense to discriminate?
No. Common sense that you can do whatever you want. Whether or not its right or wrong is a different matter.
Example. If I wanted to, I could punch a baby, call someone a .manlover., and ride a motorcycle into a large crowd. Just because I CAN do that doesn't make it right and it also doesn't mean there won't be consequences.
You follow?
Yeah I get that. But does know one have morals? How's it ok to judge? How's it ok to discriminate?
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 06:06:13 PM
Yeah I get that. But does know one have morals? How's it ok to judge? How's it ok to discriminate?
I didnt say it is okay to judge and discriminate. I just merely stated that you have the natural born right and ability to do whatever you want. By trying to stifle and control how anti-gay marriage people choose to feel about the issue, you're doing the exact same thing youre accusing them of doing. Judging and being discriminant.
Incorrect sir. I never said they were bad people or I would treat them differently. I merely disagree with their opinion like they disagree with mine. It's one thing to disagree another to be discriminatory because you disagree.
So I put words into your mouth just like you put words in my mouth.
For the record, I don't care if someone is gay. I have my own opinions on the subject and if anyone wants to know, you can PM me. I'm keeping them off of public forums for the time being.
My whole argument in this thread was that anyone can do, say, think, and act how they want. That is your natural born right. It doesn't mean there is no such thing as right or wrong, however, and it doesn't mean there won't be consequences for saying or doing something stupid.
I agree with mikefrompluto people should be able to think act and do as they please as long as its not hurting someone
"Judge not lest ye be judged." So as long as you keep in mind that your judgement is a double edged sword it's actually your right to hold others accountable.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 05:36:15 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 17, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
Why? What's the point of that? Who gave us the right to judge other people? As far as I know no one did.
Common sense.
So it's common sense to discriminate?
It is common sense to judge people on appearances.
As an example, it would be unwise to treat equally someone who looks like a priest, someone who looks like a Goth, someone who looks like a sexual deviant, someone who looks like Jew. It wouldn't make much sense.
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 08:08:44 PM
Incorrect sir. I never said they were bad people or I would treat them differently. I merely disagree with their opinion like they disagree with mine. It's one thing to disagree another to be discriminatory because you disagree.
Some lolz that one gave me. When yo do it, its merely disagreeing, when I do it its discriminating. Moral relativity or just hypocrisy?
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: NightWolf on July 17, 2013, 08:08:44 PM
Incorrect sir. I never said they were bad people or I would treat them differently. I merely disagree with their opinion like they disagree with mine. It's one thing to disagree another to be discriminatory because you disagree.
Some lolz that one gave me. When yo do it, its merely disagreeing, when I do it its discriminating. Moral relativity or just hypocrisy?
I'm not judging you on your opinion though. Not in the least. You disagree with me and that's your beliefs. I'm not going to think less of you because of that.
When I hear stupid things from people, I think less of them. It would be unwise to do otherwise. Common sense.
I disagree. I try not to judge anyone I don't know. (We all know as a human being I'm still guilty of judging) I think this had deviated from the original argument though. I appreciated the banter thank you good sir.
Despite the fact that marriage exists - which is stupid: people should create their own contracts. "Marriage" is a strictly religious thing, they have the right to deny whomever they'd like. That doesn't mean the state shouldn't allow equal protection under the law for gay couples.
While I feel religious groups are misguided on what is actually at stake, and would prefer they use their resouces helping people in need, the pageantry and ancient marriage ceremony is easy enough to replicate without being officially endorsed. Unless you believe that whole "blessed before god" non-sense, which no one has any good reason to.
Marriage isn't for family raising. Plenty of people raise families unmarried, plenty get married and never raise families. it is certainly advantageous to be married, incase you die, want to jointly file taxes together, have other tax deductions. It's not the governments place to be withholding the rights of citizens based on nothing but a poorly written contract.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 18, 2013, 09:18:41 AMit is certainly advantageous to be married, incase you die, want to jointly file taxes together, have other tax deductions.
Funny enough, in the UK the opposite is true, it is generally much more advantageous to be single mother living with a fake non-husband. Just shows how .loved. up the current laws are. Also, I'm disappointed I couldn't give you the 200. Gratz!
Quote from: NightWolf on July 18, 2013, 09:05:34 AM
I disagree. I try not to judge anyone I don't know.
What you are arguing is political correctness at the top of its stupidity. There's nothing wrong with judging people, as long as you are correct in your judgement. I know people by what I hear from them, by what I see them doing. The more I observe them, the more accurate my judgement is, but I will judge you from the very first sentence I hear from you.
Two things Dudecore.
1. We help people frequently. The church that I go to, and many others around it, is active. We do many mission trips, some that build houses for the people that aren't quite getting by. We go donate many times to many know offerings, and quite a few not so much known. We also have missionaries that go to places like Afghanistan, to teach the word of God. Saying we don't help people is wrong.
2. Congrats on getting to 200 karma Dudecore :)
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: NightWolf on July 18, 2013, 09:05:34 AM
I disagree. I try not to judge anyone I don't know.
What you are arguing is political correctness at the top of its stupidity. There's nothing wrong with judging people, as long as you are correct in your judgement. I know people by what I hear from them, by what I see them doing. The more I observe them, the more accurate my judgement is, but I will judge you from the very first sentence I hear from you.
I think the problem with bias isn't in how we judge or analyze (I agree with Piotr in that it is wise to make assumptions about people based on prior experience). I feel that the problem with bias lies in refusing to adapt our views based on a spirit of inquisitiveness. In addition to this, regardless of how well our views align, it is infinitely important that we seek to preserve the dignity and wellbeing of others. I can disagree with anything being said here today but the only instance where it is permissible to harm the well being and dignity of another is where they try to do it first.
Thank you for all of the 200 karma wishes. It's 90% Piotr and Mikefrompluto who got me to it. But thanks everyone else.
Actually marriage was originally created as official ownership of the wife, who was essentially nothing more than property at the time. Marriage and its definition has changed a LOT since it was made in 'ye olde days.'
Quote from: Taysby on July 18, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 18, 2013, 09:18:41 AM
Marriage isn't for family raising. Plenty of people raise families unmarried, plenty get married and never raise families. it is certainly advantageous to be married, incase you die, want to jointly file taxes together, have other tax deductions. It's not the governments place to be withholding the rights of citizens based on nothing but a poorly written contract.
Ok, now that I look at it I didn't say what I wanted to.
Marriage was created for families. And when It was created it was so kids could have a stable environment as well as the parents living with the person they wanted too.
when a gay couple get married, that are fullfilling marriage in the point of living with the person the want to, however, they are pretty much saying SCREW YOU KIDS! We can't make you, and we can't raise you balanced, so ha ha, which is mocking that aspect of marriage.
The government has added benefits to make people want to get married to raise familys and try and keep them together, thus lowering the rates of divorced couples and broken families (supposedly. I don't think it works) and if gay couples want those benefits, THEY CAN GET THEM without making a mockery of marriage.
Marriage wasnt intended to raise families. It replaced the dowry system. I don't think gay marriage is an attempt to slight the "family values" you appear to think its doing. It's about equal protection under the law.
Financial hardship is the leading cause of divorce by a huge margin. It is also the leading cause of same sex couples splitting as well. If the divorce rate wasnt constantly hovering around 43%+ I'd say you may have a point. In "no fault" divorce states seems to be trending much higher.
Marriage for most people is a mistake, and further more the costs associated with a split cause people who have no business staying together to do so for financial reasons. One could make a leap (as I will do right here) and suggest that marriage is actually BAD for families and children. If you've ever grown up in a loveless home, or your parents ever divorced or dealt with their arguing and resentment for one another - it is because the system is horrible coercive.
Marriage makes a mockery of itself, and it's being tied to having children, or as some sacred institution that is to be admired just isn't the truth of what legal marriage is. I'd never get married and could be with a single partner forever. But for me to be able to have any of the benefits of marriage, id have to sign a stupid piece of paper and accept a new set of consequences for doing so. It goes against the very nature of love.
In conclusion, marriage goes against the very definition of families and love - because it was never meant to appeal to either. It's a legal document attached to a religious ceremony. The same ceremony which was adapted, and reworded from the same dowry ceremonies.
I don't know what I'm looking to read in Genesis to support your point, but I'd be willing to do so nonetheless if provided with a place to start.
If folks are advocating that same sex couples be married in churches, then I've previously stated they have no business doing so. They're private institutions that are allowed to deny them. I believe when folks speak of "gay marriage", they're speaking of the legal term. They would like equal protection under the laws.
Personal beliefs aside, I don't know why Christians do very un-Christian things in certain situations. I grew up a believer, and saw others not "treating others as they'd like to be treated". It triggered me looking into it further and eventually have no good reasons to believe anymore. If same sex couples would like to get married, who cares?
So much as the state cannot tell churches to wed same sex couples, so should churches not tell states to not provide protections to same sex couples.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 18, 2013, 11:14:51 PMI don't think gay marriage is an attempt to slight the "family values" you appear to think its doing. It's about equal protection under the law.
You could argue that civil partnerships are about equal protection under the law, but you would still be wrong. Gay marriage is an attempt at destroing the western civilisation, civilisation based on Christian values.
It is part of the bigger problem of ever growing state. Let me repeat what I said earlier in this thread; we wouldn't have sexual deviants marriage problem if state didnt interfere*. FFFFFFFUUUUU, government.
* there should be no such thing as government provided marriage of any kind, and marriage shouldn't exist in the law at all. Whether someone is married or not should be irrelevant to how the law judges a case, otherwise by definition people are not equal under the law. Look at iMtG law, we don't give damn if you are married, coloured, deviant, foetus, or whatever. If you are human and victim of crime, iMtG law protects you. For the law there should only be two categories of people: victims and criminals, everything else is superfluous and wrong.
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 04:26:01 AM
You could argue that civil partnerships are about equal protection under the law, but you would still be wrong. Gay marriage is an attempt at destroing the western civilisation, civilisation based on Christian values.
Is that a bit of hyperbole on your part? You never struck me as the type to actually buy into that sort of doomsday prophecy. It shouldnt matter how the country was founded. And I'm all for removing government from all aspects of our lives, lets remove marriage from everyone.
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 04:26:01 AM
You could argue that civil partnerships are about equal protection under the law, but you would still be wrong. Gay marriage is an attempt at destroing the western civilisation, civilisation based on Christian values.
Western civilization is not defined by the moral views of any specific religious denomination, at least in the US. We were founded as a secular state, not to be influenced by any religious entity, and the attempt to force your religious morales into any aspect of government, including marriage (as a legal partnership, not the specific rites/ceremonies of any particular group) is fundamentally wrong and violates the principles of separation of church and state.
No one is forcing any church or other religious place of worship to host same-sex marriages, and the issue should not be tied to some delusion of moral wrongdoing by certain religious groups. It is purely a legal issue and right that religious zealots have no business in dictating.
In case the above doesn't make it clear, I am in favor of legalizing gay marriage.
Genisis doesn't really talk about marriage but in Hebrews it mentions it heavily as being a sacred thing. And yes marriage was original made for families, but not the kind your thinking of it's to conjoin two different families together creating stronger tribes and stronger bonds between people with different backgrounds. But it has always been sacred and a religious thing not to be handled by the government! You're right it does violate the seperation of church and state! The state is at fault tho not the church!
Adam was intimate with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. She said, "I have had a male child with the Lord 's help." (Genesis 4:1 HCSB)
???????
Don't get me wrong I'm against Gay Marriage but I want you to be on the right page when you represent the bible..
Well what demomination are you? I'm Christian Baptist and the translation that the BCA has followed is the Holman Christian Standard Bible
Quote from: Dudecore on July 19, 2013, 09:26:07 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 04:26:01 AM
You could argue that civil partnerships are about equal protection under the law, but you would still be wrong. Gay marriage is an attempt at destroing the western civilisation, civilisation based on Christian values.
Is that a bit of hyperbole on your part? You never struck me as the type to actually buy into that sort of doomsday prophecy. It shouldnt matter how the country was founded. And I'm all for removing government from all aspects of our lives, lets remove marriage from everyone.
Western civilisation is based on Christian ethics, it is being destroyed and replaced by cultural Marxism, the ethics of which is evil. It is a practical thing that happens in real world. As you know I do not subscribe to the idea of God that much, but I have a lot of respect for Christianity and its values. Half of the bloody iMtG law is copy pasted from them ;)
Yes, I advocate removing marriage from government power.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 11:40:48 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 04:26:01 AM
You could argue that civil partnerships are about equal protection under the law, but you would still be wrong. Gay marriage is an attempt at destroing the western civilisation, civilisation based on Christian values.
Western civilization is not defined by the moral views of any specific religious denomination, at least in the US. We were founded as a secular state, not to be influenced by any religious entity, and the attempt to force your religious morales into any aspect of government, including marriage (as a legal partnership, not the specific rites/ceremonies of any particular group) is fundamentally wrong and violates the principles of separation of church and state.
No one is forcing any church or other religious place of worship to host same-sex marriages, and the issue should not be tied to some delusion of moral wrongdoing by certain religious groups. It is purely a legal issue and right that religious zealots have no business in dictating.
In case the above doesn't make it clear, I am in favor of legalizing gay marriage.
There's nothing religious about Christian values. iMtG law is a secular law based on Christian values. Western civilisation is based on Christian values.
Western civilisation was created upon Do not steal. That is being replaced with .loving. socialism and wealth redistribution, which is stealing. Do not murder is being replaced with abortion. Etc.
I think in the case of the golden rule and such, those were lessons adopted because they make sense. Christianity can't claim to have written that statement so much as they can't claim "thou shalt not murder" is an idea intrinsic to the teachings of Judaism. It's just a good idea.
The morality of the bible is quite suspect, and in some cases downright immoral. The "great" lessons it teaches happen to be ones that don't need teaching. The foundation of our country is what it is, it doesn't actually tell us what is right or wrong about it. Afterall, societies do not suffer - people do.
Sure, I do not say they have a monopoly on that or they invented it. Confucianism was before Christianity and they had golden rule too. Historically western civilisation is not based on Confucianism, it is based on ethics of Christianity. Btw, the other half of iMtG law is in direct contradiction to Christianity. Christianity teaches forgiveness, and that when someone hits one part of your face you should turn the other part to be hit. Rubbish, .loving. punish the bastard, deal some revenge! ;)