This is a place holder for a discussion about the stack and it's function in the game.
For now, just know that it is where spells and abilities sit and wait to resolve or "go off". Things resolve "First in, Last out". That means the last thing put on the stack will happen first.
So say during combat my goblin arsonist dies along with one of their creatures they also have an unruly mob. What happens first? Can the goblin arsonist ping the mob before it gets a counter
At first I was thinking they happen simultaneously but these abilities would have to use the stack also wouldnt they? If so I get priority meaning his resolves first?
So, when a bunch of things would happen or trigger simultaneously, they get placed on the stack by players in APNAP order (active player - non-active player). And as Poof said, the last person to put their triggers on the stack will have theirs resolve first.
Poor arsonist :(
So if the same situation happened during his combat phase my goblin arsonist would be able to kill off the mob
I dont think so because active player, you, first, then opponent. Opponents thing happened last. Mob is 2/2 before you can shock for 1.
Sit. 1) Your attack.
You attack with {Goblin Arsonist}.
Your opponent has an {Unruly Mob} and a 1/1 Human token. They block the arsonist with their token.
When the combat damage dealt kills both the human token and the arsonist, two triggers are going to wait to be put on the stack. The first time for that will be at the beginning of the End of Combat Step.
Since you were attacking, you are the Active player and you put your triggers (the one point of damage from the arsonist) on first. Then you opponent will put their Mob's trigger on the stack. Now Players would get a chance to respond with instants and abilities. If no one does, the mob will get a counter and the arsonist will deal its damage.
Sit 2) Your Block
Your opponent has an {Unruly Mob} and a 1/1 Human token. They attack with their token.
You block the token with {Goblin Arsonist}.
Your opponent will put the mob's trigger on the stack, and then you will put the arsonist's damage on the stack. The last one on the stack will happen first, so the damage will be deal to the mob. then the mob will die before the +1/+1 trigger will resolve.
Ah this helps my understanding of the stack I was found it confusing thanks blackjester
An important thing to remember is that each player receives and must pass priority for each thing to resolve off the stack. The stack doesn't just resolve all at once, you can chose to let the top item or two resolve on the stack, but then respond to the third item.
One time opponent had rot wolf attacked I declared no blockers because I had none he then used I think 3 mutagenic growths and would have killed me but in response I used dismember. His rot wolf died but he did not believe me. I almost pulled the trigger and dismembered after he declared it as an attacker but that would have cost me the game he would have kept it alive in response with his mutagenic growths
Other tricky situations arise when a creatures with abilities leave the battlefield. During prerelease I tap beguiler of wills to take his creature he used something like vapor snag to send it back my hand I told him I still take over his creature because the ability is still on the stack and is going to resolve he and the group next to us said I was wrong until I called the judge over to
Clarify
Let's say I have priority and cast a spell now my opponent has priority and cast a spell or as many he wants before priority is given back to me right? I can't interrupt one of his spells if he was still going to cast another? So when hes done priority returns to me and I have nothing to play. Does he get priority back and have to pass before anything resolves? After the first spell resolves off the top I get priority then him before the next spell resolves?
Quote from: Poof on March 05, 2012, 07:54:49 PM
One time opponent had rot wolf attacked I declared no blockers because I had none he then used I think 3 mutagenic growths and would have killed me but in response I used dismember. His rot wolf died but he did not believe me. I almost pulled the trigger and dismembered after he declared it as an attacker but that would have cost me the game he would have kept it alive in response with his mutagenic growths
The assumption is that he cast each one in response to the first. Your ability to play {Dismember} is because your opponent didnt specify that he was letting each one resolve before casting the next.
Quote from: Poof on March 05, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
Other tricky situations arise when a creatures with abilities leave the battlefield. During prerelease I tap {beguiler of wills} to take his creature he used something like {vapor snag} to send it back my hand I told him I still take over his creature because the ability is still on the stack and is going to resolve he and the group next to us said I was wrong until I called the judge over to
Clarify
Abilities on the stack exist separately from their creator. Removing the creature that put the ability on the stack doesn't stop the ability. You would gain control of a creature as long as its power is less than or equal to the number off creatures you have after the beguiled is gone.
Quote from: Poof on March 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
Let's say I have priority and cast a spell now my opponent has priority and cast a spell or as many he wants before priority is given back to me right? I can't interrupt one of his spells if he was still going to cast another? So when hes done priority returns to me and I have nothing to play. Does he get priority back and have to pass before anything resolves? After the first spell resolves off the top I get priority then him before the next spell resolves?
CR116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
Quote from: BlackJester on March 05, 2012, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Poof on March 05, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
Other tricky situations arise when a creatures with abilities leave the battlefield. During prerelease I tap {beguiler of wills} to take his creature he used something like {vapor snag} to send it back my hand I told him I still take over his creature because the ability is still on the stack and is going to resolve he and the group next to us said I was wrong until I called the judge over to
Clarify
Abilities on the stack exist separately from their creator. Removing the creature that put the ability on the stack doesn't stop the ability. You would gain control of a creature as long as its power is less than or equal to the number off creatures you have after the beguiled is gone.
Now if he vapor snagged his own creature, he could keep it, yes?
Yes Kiki. When his creature changes zones, the game loses track of it, and the
Ability is countered on resolution.
Quote from: BlackJester on March 05, 2012, 09:50:38 PM
The assumption is that he cast each one in response to the first. Your ability to play {Dismember} is because your opponent didnt specify that he was letting each one resolve before casting the next.
So what is proper protocol there anyways? Do you have to ask every time you play something if it resolves? Or is it okay just to pause for a few seconds? What would a judge say is "proper etiquette" when playing a spell (or multiple) to signify each resolving separately?
Well, there is CR716 - Taking Shortcuts
As long as each player has a mutually understood shortcuts, then this is okay. However, a spell is put into the graveyard when it resolves. So if you want to respond, either to your own play or someone else's, then do it while the spell is still on the stack.
Now, technically, if you cast a spell or activate an ability, then you indicate you are passing priority and your opponent does nothing, the spell resolves. You can't cast something, wait to see if they respond, and if they don't then you respond to it. If you cast three spells one after another without pause, it's generally assumed that you are holding priority and none of them have resolved. Avoid this unless you have a good reason.
If I were to play in a Pro tour, I would make everything as explicit as possible, an let everything resolve before moving on. You don't want to cast three {Mutagenic Growth}s in a row, only to have your opponent {Doom Blade} your guy. T_T
I like to think of The Stack as an actual place, like the Command Zone, next to the battlefield. When things get crazy, I've been know to use pieces of paper to represent abilities on the stack so that everyone can follow along.
So complicated you have to use paper!? I mean I've been in a game with several strong Dimir decks and nothing ever got that haywire!
That just sounds horrifying!!
More like I need to demonstrate how abilities don't just "happen" and that triggered abilities can still be responded to. I remember one time had to do with dealing damage with a {Triskelion} to kill a {Fungal Sliver} before it got its own +1/+1 counters.
Edit: Well that and {Eye of the Storm} shenanigans. They won't let me play that anymore. 😂
Lol (eye of the storm) + (grapeshot) is fun stuff
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 15, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Lol {eye of the storm} + {grapeshot} is fun stuff
Curly brackets please :)
(? [? {? which one? I keep doing the wrong ones >_<
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 15, 2012, 06:51:38 PM
(? [? {? which one? I keep doing the wrong ones >_<
{{{}}}
Curly brackets are on "under" the 3 and 4 on the second page.
Man! BJ, you're like the Transporter in one of his him-vs-the rest battle in this thread!
😂 Haven't you already made that reference? 😄
Quote from: BlackJester on March 16, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
😂 Haven't you already made that reference? 😄
😁 I think the last one was Bruce Lee. 😏
Jet li wins all fights. Chuck norris isnt even a match for him
Quote from: Spikepit on March 16, 2012, 08:58:54 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on March 16, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
😂 Haven't you already made that reference? 😄
😁 I think the last one was Bruce Lee. 😏
Great, now you've gone and made me look it up ::):
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=1503.0
If I have a { torch friend } and someone { doom blade }it can I use it's ability Since its instant ? Or it dies before I can use it ?
Quote from: Dywolf on April 02, 2012, 03:27:49 AM
If I have a { torch friend } and someone { doom blade }it can I use it's ability Since its instant ? Or it dies before I can use it ?
Before {Doom Blade} resolves, you absolutely can use the {Torch Fiend}'s ability and sac it. You are always able to respond to spells with fast-effects. (except with the Split Second ability, but that's a topic for another day.)
Ok I was wondering because at my last FMN I used { doom blade } on something but the player used shock on one of his creature ( I didn't have any) " to gain priority" then he sacrificed his creature do destroy my artifact .. So I am not really sure why he did that
Yeah, he didn't really need to do that.
I'm guessing that the sacrifice was part of the cost, so he should have just paid the cost and the activated ability would just go on the stack to resolve before your doom blade gets to kill it.
Quote from: Wally on April 02, 2012, 03:57:31 AM
Yeah, he didn't really need to do that.
I'm guessing that the sacrifice was part of the cost, so he should have just paid the cost and the activated ability would just go on the stack to resolve before your doom blade gets to kill it.
Yeah, he wasted a {Shock} because he would have HAD priority in order to CAST the shock. LoL
Quote from: BlackJester on March 16, 2012, 09:09:07 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on March 16, 2012, 08:58:54 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on March 16, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
😂 Haven't you already made that reference? 😄
😁 I think the last one was Bruce Lee. 😏
Great, now you've gone and made me look it up ::):
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=1503.0
Oh! You win! But how cool is the Transporter!
This is a 3 part question;
I play {mayor of avabruck} and it flips to {howlpack alpha} on their turn, then my next turn play {feed the pack} but dont want to sacrifice {howlpack alpha}. When the end phase begins, what stacks when:
The alpha first on the stack(because mayor was in play first), resolving the feed the pack first?
Or will alpha create the token before I have to choose the sac.
Last part is the same questions but if instead the mayor is in play turn 5 and then the feed the pack comes into play turn 6, then the mayor gets flipped to alpha during enemy's turn 6?
I'll appreciate to hear back from somebody.
Quote from: Crusnik01RKO on April 27, 2012, 12:59:02 AM
This is a 3 part question;
I play {mayor of avabruck} and it flips to {howlpack alpha} on their turn, then my next turn play {feed the pack} but dont want to sacrifice {howlpack alpha}. When the end phase begins, what stacks when:
The alpha first on the stack(because mayor was in play first), resolving the feed the pack first?
Or will alpha create the token before I have to choose the sac.
Last part is the same questions but if instead the mayor is in play turn 5 and then the feed the pack comes into play turn 6, then the mayor gets flipped to alpha during enemy's turn 6?
I'll appreciate to hear back from somebody.
Good questions. The answer to them all is the same: whenever a player has more than one trigger that would go on the stack from a single event (end step in this case) that player chooses the order they are placed. It really doesn't matter in cases like this which has been on the battlefield longer.
Also worth mentioning is that the ability on {Feed the Pack} doesn't target a creature. This means you don't have to chose one until the ability begins resolving. If creatures change between the time the ability trigger and goes on the stack and when it resolves, the ability only asks that you choose when it resolves and will check the chosen non-token creature's toughness at that time.
Also, {Feed the Pack}'s ability says "you may" so you can choose to do nothing when it resolves.
I attack with a creature like a 3/3, my opponent blocks with a 2/1 that has an enchantment that allows his creature to tap deal one damage to target creature or player. So he blocks, taps his guy, I respond with righteous blow. He says mine resolves first but the ability of the enchantment resolves after even though the creature it was enchanting is dead. I didn't really understand how an enchaments ability could be active if the creature was dead from my righteous blow.
Did I get hosed?
Quote from: Willthomjr on May 19, 2012, 03:45:59 AM
I attack with a creature like a 3/3, my opponent blocks with a 2/1 that has an enchantment that allows his creature to tap deal one damage to target creature or player. So he blocks, taps his guy, I respond with {righteous blow}. He says mine resolves first but the ability of the enchantment resolves after even though the creature it was enchanting is dead. I didn't really understand how an enchaments ability could be active if the creature was dead from my righteous blow.
Did I get hosed?
Your opponent is correct. Once an ability is declared, costs are paid, and it's put on the stack, it exists separately from whatever put it on the stack.
Think of it like an arrow. Once it's fired, killing the archer won't stop the arrow.
Your 3/3 will still survive, having only taken one damage. His creature won't deal any combat damage, since that no longer uses the stack.
Quote from: BlackJester on May 19, 2012, 10:33:39 AM
Quote from: Willthomjr on May 19, 2012, 03:45:59 AM
I attack with a creature like a 3/3, my opponent blocks with a 2/1 that has an enchantment that allows his creature to tap deal one damage to target creature or player. So he blocks, taps his guy, I respond with {righteous blow}. He says mine resolves first but the ability of the enchantment resolves after even though the creature it was enchanting is dead. I didn't really understand how an enchaments ability could be active if the creature was dead from my righteous blow.
Did I get hosed?
Your opponent is correct. Once an ability is declared, costs are paid, and it's put on the stack, it exists separately from whatever put it on the stack.
Think of it like an arrow. Once it's fired, killing the archer won't stop the arrow.
Your 3/3 will still survive, having only taken one damage. His creature won't deal any combat damage, since that no longer uses the stack.
He would have to tap his creature directly after the declare blocker step and before the damage step. If he tapped it after the damage step it would be too late since his creature would have died from your 3/3. Correct Jester?
You betcha!
Older players, or players returning to the game, might get tripped up on this because combat damage actually used to use the stack.
There was a time where you could attack with a {Ball Lightning}, put the combat damage on the stack, and fling it for another 6 damage. It only changed fairly recently too. (Recent is pretty subjective, anyone have the rules change date?)
If I have in play {treacherous pit-dweller} and a {nephalia smuggler} with enough untapped mana to use smuggler. And somehow pit-dweller goes to the graveyard and triggers undying.
My first question triggers many,
The pit-dweller enters the battlefield, triggering its first ability to change control to target opponent and putting it on the stack?
If pits ability is on the stack, I can target pit with smuggler and blink the pit-dweller's ability away?
If pit returns this way, it's +1/+1 undying counter doesn't return with it?
You can do that it loses it's counter when exiled
Quote from: Crusnik01RKO on May 27, 2012, 04:35:06 PM
If I have in play {treacherous pit-dweller} and a {nephalia smuggler} with enough untapped mana to use smuggler. And somehow pit-dweller goes to the graveyard and triggers undying.
My first question triggers many,
The pit-dweller enters the battlefield, triggering its first ability to change control to target opponent and putting it on the stack?
If pits ability is on the stack, I can target pit with smuggler and blink the pit-dweller's ability away?
If pit returns this way, it's +1/+1 undying counter doesn't return with it?
1) I'm not sure if that was a question or more of a statement, but yes. Unless it had a counter on it, undying will bring it back. When it reenters, the triggered '{Donate}' ability will go on the stack. Along with the soulbond trigger. Since they are your abilities you may chose the order to put them on the stack.
2) If you chose to put the donate stack on the bottom of the soulbond trigger (which is the smart play here), then you can activate the smuggler's ability to flicker the pit-dweller. Since it is coming back from exile and not from the grave, the donate trigger won't happen again. The earlier trigger will lose track of the dweller after it leaves play.
3) yes.
I'm new to the magic world and was wondering, and don't think I'm stupid, but how many cards should be in your library during a duel
I am an older player I stopped buying around mirage so I have a question. Using a red burn deck i play aether flash and my opponent has 1 relentless rat in play, on his turn he plays a relentless rat, so my question is they are both triggered abilities so do the resolve in lifo or does the rat take the damage as he comes into play and they do not get the +1\+1?
Quote from: XfromerX on June 02, 2012, 04:52:31 PM
I am an older player I stopped buying around mirage so I have a question. Using a red burn deck i play aether flash and my opponent has 1 relentless rat in play, on his turn he plays a relentless rat, so my question is they are both triggered abilities so do the resolve in lifo or does the rat take the damage as he comes into play and they do not get the +1\+1?
It would make a lot easier if you linked the cards. Use {} and out the card name in between.
One could also be courteous and just say {Relentless Rats} and {Aether Flash}, Kuberr. ;)
Anyway, the flash wouldn't kill the second Rat since the +1/+1 is a static effect, so it enters as a 3/3.
The stack works as filo and if two abilities would trigger at the same time active player goes on stack first since he's playing a creature that means his stuff goes on stack first
But this wouldn't matter because after looking at the cards the rats effect is static and doesn't use stack
Quote from: Ciciben on June 02, 2012, 02:38:09 PM
I'm new to the magic world and was wondering, and don't think I'm stupid, but how many cards should be in your library during a duel
In a constructed deck, your library mist be a minimum of 60 cards. It is usually recommended to stay as close to the minimum as you can, as you will be more likely to draw the cards you want.
In a limited format (a draft game or a sealed game) the minimum is reduced to 40, because you have to make your decks from unopened packs on the spot.
Yeah sorry about the link thing this is my first time posting on here but thanx maximo for the clairification.
And i understand how the stack works i was just confused on the static on the rats.
Ok cause u asked if it was LIFO and that's not how it works
My mistake filo LIFO same thing
How does tamiyo ultimate work with mana leak? It just seems like at some point my spell should resolve before getting another mana leak played since it goes back to his hand :/
Can you explain it a little better Spells don't go to the graveyard until they resolve
Quote from: Willthomjr on June 04, 2012, 02:40:11 AM
How does tamiyo ultimate work with mana leak? It just seems like at some point my spell should resolve before getting another mana leak played since it goes back to his hand :/
Are you asking what happens to the {mana leak} if its caster has tamiyo's emblem in play, or what happens to a countered spell if the countered spell's owner has the emblem?
If the owner of {Tamiyo the Moon Sage} casts a spell and it gets countered, that spell would go to the graveyard, but the emblem says "nope" and it goes back to his/her hand.
If you're asking what happens to the mana leak if it's controller has the emblem, I'm not 100% sure because I forget when instants/sorcery cards go to the grave.
I don't think this is correct but If they go to they graveyard immediately and just their effect is added to the stack, then you would in theory have the same mana leak to use again in the same stack.
But I think the card actually goes to the graveyard when its effect happens and the spell resolves, so you wouldn't get it back in hand until the leak resolves, at the bottom of the stack (aside from the original spell it's targeting). Jester, can you confirm or be /hatin'?
Either way, I'm pretty sure you can cast mana leak (or {stifle} or {counterspell}) on top of a large stack, get it back when it resolves at the latest (possibly immediately), respond to the spell resolving by adding it again because it's in your hand again, and repeat to {cancel} the whole stack no matter how large, as long as you have the mana.
If u read my post instans and sorceries go to graveyard when they resolve.
What I think is happening though is the guy your playing against mana leaks you and you respond with something else and he mana leaks you again with the same
Carsl which shouldn't be possible if it hasn't resolved yet it would not have gone to the graveyard yet
Let's say I {doom blade} a creature my opponent responds by making the creature hexproof for the turn. Can I respond by {doom blade}ing the creature again do to his spell still being on the stack?
Yes. You can still target it before his spell resolves.
The last spell casted always resolves first.
Helloooo i have a question about the leonin shikari/lightning greaves combo. A guy i know said that if he targets a creature with an instant spell and i equip the greaves onto the targeted creature he can cast another instant spell targeting another one of my creatures before the first equip resolves, effectively destroying the second targeted creature. My question is, if the leonin shikari now allows me to attach, rather than equip equipments, making them instants, i can likewise respond to his second spell by attaching them to the second creature. The equip cost of the greaves is 0 so i could infinitely activate this ability to respond to his spells, right?
Quote from: Lunamoth on July 10, 2012, 02:45:02 AM
Helloooo i have a question about the {leonin shikari}{lightning greaves} combo. A guy i know said that if he targets a creature with an instant spell and i equip the greaves onto the targeted creature he can cast another instant spell targeting another one of my creatures before the first equip resolves, effectively destroying the second targeted creature. My question is, if the leonin shikari now allows me to attach, rather than equip equipments, making them instants, i can likewise respond to his second spell by attaching them to the second creature. The equip cost of the greaves is 0 so i could infinitely activate this ability to respond to his spells, right?
Yes, you are right. For as long as you can pay the cost ({0}) you can keep adding the equip ability to the stack.
Thank you! :D
One thing though is you cannot equip once there is something on the stack. So if he targets your creature u cannot equip it until the instant resolves. If u equip first and then he targets your creature in response while equip ability is on the stack then the instant would still resolve first
Quote from: Poof on July 11, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
One thing though is you cannot equip once there is something on the stack. So if he targets your creature u cannot equip it until the instant resolves. If u equip first and then he targets your creature in response while equip ability is on the stack then the instant would still resolve first
Sorry, Poof, but with {Leonin Shikari} on the field, Lunamoth can equip in response to a spell.
His first part of the message seems to imply that it wasn't on the field yet thats the part I'm referring to. He says his second targeted creature would be killed because he can't re equip to save it but he wouldn't of been able to save the first one to begin with
I see. Yes, I thought they had Shikari on the board the whole time.
So, no, you cannot use the "equip" ability other than your main phase with an empty stack ("sorcery speed"). There are spells and abilities that can attach as an instant, but not the general equip ability.
Nope, the shikari and the other creature are both already on the field as well as the lightning greaves. What the other guy was saying qa tht I couldn't equip right after he cast the destruction spell. As in I can't equip in response to something that was targetting my creature while the greaves were equipping another one.
Let's say my oppenent doom blades a creature I own, can I cast an instant card draw, draw my card (Wich for this argument will be {unsummon}). Can I then cast unsummon to save my creature?
Quote from: Imdowd80 on October 06, 2012, 05:59:12 PM
Let's say my oppenent doom blades a creature I own, can I cast an instant card draw, draw my card (Wich for this argument will be {unsummon}). Can I then cast unsummon to save my creature?
Yes, you sure can! You can respond to the resolution of your card draw spell with another instant, like the unsummon that you drew, all while that doom blade sits patiently on the stack for its turn to resolve.
Nivmagus Elemental and guttersnipe on the field. If I cast any instant/sorcery does the 2 damage happen if I choose to exile it after casting it to gain the 2 1/1 counters?
Quote from: Darth_Massey on October 13, 2012, 01:19:26 PM
{Nivmagus Elemental} and {guttersnipe} on the field. If I cast any instant/sorcery does the 2 damage happen if I choose to exile it after casting it to gain the 2 1/1 counters?
I would say you would get the 2 damage. Cast the spell, 2 damage, then exile before it resolves to pump up the elemental. I could be wrong tho . . . Not 100% sure.
I surfed the MtG site and YES you get the two damage AND can exile it for the 2 counters.
When you cast your instant/sorcery, the {Guttersnipe}'s trigger will go on The Stack on top of it. Once it is there, it doesn't matter what happens to the original spell, the 2 damage will still resolve as normal.
Situation:
My turn, I have a {Helldozer} on the BF and 7 swamps
My opponent has a {Ballynock Trapper} and 4 lands, 2 of which are non basic
I pay 3 and tap the {Helldozer} targeting one of the non basic lands
My opponent in response activates the tap ability of the {Ballynock Trapper}
He believes that the {Helldozer} would be tapped after his ability resolved because of his Trapper's ability
My belief is that the {Ballynock Trapper} taps my already tapped {Helldozer}, because of APNAP, then the dozer's ability resolves - the land would be destroyed and {Helldozer} would untap
Quote from: Bilygote on December 06, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
Situation:
My turn, I have a {Helldozer} on the BF and 7 swamps
My opponent has a {Ballynock Trapper} and 4 lands, 2 of which are non basic
I pay 3 and tap the {Helldozer} targeting one of the non basic lands
My opponent in response activates the tap ability of the {Ballynock Trapper}
He believes that the {Helldozer} would be tapped after his ability resolved because of his Trapper's ability
My belief is that the {Ballynock Trapper} taps my already tapped {Helldozer}, because of APNAP, then the dozer's ability resolves - the land would be destroyed and {Helldozer} would untap
You are correct you'll be able to destroy 3 of his lands.
I also tried to explain to him, that if he waited to tap the {Helldozer} until after the Dozer's ability resolved that I would get the chance to respond which would be tap 3 destroy another land and untap. {Helldozer} would then be tapped by his creature's tap ability.
Assuming I have the mana to pay for it, would I be allowed to activate the {Helldozer}'s ability inbetween the resolution of Dozer's previously activated ability and the {Ballynock Trapper} ability as the stack was resolving as a response?
You're correct Bilygote. And yes, you may respond to the resolution of Dozer's ability, and assuming all criteria are met to pay for it (dozer is untapped and you have the mana) you can use dozer's ability again, adding it to stack on top, leaving your opponent's ability sitting patiently on that stack waiting until you're done.
Thanks
^ bouncing a creature targeted for destruction still works though right? It would make his spell fizzle?
Also.. What decides when the current stack ends? Just when both players agree? So suppose i played a split second spell, a new stack would jus start?
Quote from: MisterJH on December 09, 2012, 10:20:56 PM
^ bouncing a creature targeted for destruction still works though right? It would make his spell fizzle?
Yes; the key word is target. If you target something, but in response someone removed that thing from play, the targetting spell or ability would fizzle. Which brings us to...the stack.
Quote from: MisterJH on December 09, 2012, 10:22:11 PM
Also.. What decides when the current stack ends? Just when both players agree? So suppose i played a split second spell, a new stack would jus start?
Okay, here is an analogy for the stack that will hopefully answer your questions.
---
The stack is like a plate, and spells are pancakes. Casting a spell is like placing a pancake on the plate (stack). And eating a pancake is resolving a spell. BUT WAIT. There's a catch! You cannot eat a pancake if another one is on top of it. When you place a pancake on the stack, you let the other person get a chance to place one. Once no player has any more pancakes to place on the stack, it starts to get eaten FROM THE TOP DOWN! Here is a visualization:
So say the plate (stack) is empty. But I decide to cast {Thought Scour}. When I do this, I place one pancake (spell) on the stack. So the {Thought Scour} pancake is ready to be eaten (resolved). But oh no, before you eat your thought scour pancake, your buddy decides to cast a {Think Twice} pancake in response!
So now let's look at the plate (stack). On the bottom is your thought scour pancake. Sitting on top is the {Think Twice} pancake. Remember, the stack must be eaten (resolved) from the top down. No exceptions!
So {Think Twice} is eaten first! This means the my opponent draws a card. Once he does, my {Thought Scour} is the only pancake left on the stack. But wait a second...my opponent isn't done yet. He decides to place another pancake on the stack: {Lightning Bolt}
So now there are 2 pancakes again! This is because when there are 2 or more spells on the stack, you can let the first one resolve and then respond to the one that's left! Cool, huh?
So the lightning bolt pancake is eaten and I take 3. There is now once again, one pancake on the stack! My lovely thought scour. Now my opponent has no more responses, so I can eat it. Now I mill myself 2 and draw a card because my thought scour pancake was finally eaten (resolved)!
Now for split second cards. When a split second pancake is on the plate (stack), NO OTHER PANCAKES MAY BE PLACED ON THE PLATE!!! Think of split second cards as nasty pancakes that no other pancakes want to share the stack with. So if you cast a split second spell, NO PLAYERS may cast spells until the split second one resolves. This means it can't be countered, or responded to.
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Hope the whole pancake thing relates. I know I luv pancakes ;)
Holy mother of god sweet infant baby Jesus. This pancake analogy is the GREATEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!
MIND=BLOWN
That pancake analogy reminded me of Sexual Harassment Panda's explanation pf sexual harassment laws.. It was also extraordinarily helpful
So suppose i cast {vines of vastwood}, and it goes on the stack.. He can totally just doom blade my creature making vines of vastwood useless? That seems like a sad life for a card
That is correct. If you are casting multiple buffing spells, cast vines last in case they have a killspell ready.
Lol the pancake analogy was great!! My sister finally understands the stack
I have an {Evolving Wilds} on the field and a {Golgari Rot Farm} in hand. If I were to play the Rot Farm, target the Wilds to return to my hand, could I then tap and sac the Wilds for the fetch land and keep the Rot Farm on the field, or would it bounce itself?
Yes, rot farms ETB effect is a triggered effect. You can respond to it by tapping and sac-ing. You will be able to fetch a land and have the farm, tapped of course.
Now another question on top of this one that I am not sure of. If rot farm said, "when rot farm enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you return a land to your hand." If you were to then target evolving wilds and sac it in response would rot farm stay bc the trigger has already been placed on the stack?
Rotfarm doesnt target anything. For it to be played, a land MUST go to your hand. The only way to avoid this would be to {stifle} it or something, and i dont even know if that would work since rotfarm is a land.
Aahhhh my bad guys. Too much eggnog lol
I've gotten mixed answers on this problem and I want to get it figured out. I ran into a legend rule issue with {Wild Pair} and {Phantasmal Image}. I copied my opponents {Intet, the Dreamer} and I know that that would kill them both, but since Phantasmal Image entered as a 6/6 I wanted to bring out my {Intet, the Dreamer} but I wasn't sure if it would die as well or does it come into play after the first 2 die?
Quote from: KILLERBEE on January 17, 2013, 11:49:10 PM
I've gotten mixed answers on this problem and I want to get it figured out. I ran into a legend rule issue with {Wild Pair} and {Phantasmal Image}. I copied my opponents {Intet, the Dreamer} and I know that that would kill them both, but since Phantasmal Image entered as a 6/6 I wanted to bring out my {Intet, the Dreamer} but I wasn't sure if it would die as well or does it come into play after the first 2 die?
That is a tricky one. But I believe you would get to keep your Intet, and here's why.
- you cast {Phantasmal Image}. It resolves.
- it enters the battlefield as a copy of your opponent's Intet. {Wild Pair}'s trigger is added to the stack.
- Game state is checked. It sees two legendary creatures named {Intet the Dreamer} and legend-rules them without using the stack.
- Wild Pair resolves, using the last known state of the Phantasmal Image's being (a copy of Intet) as its guide. You may use that info to play your own {Intet the Dreamer}, who stays because the other Intet and his clone are both already gone from the legend rule as a state-based action before wild pair resolved.
Yup that pretty much summs it up...nice explaining gorzo.
Okay quick question for gatecrash: my opponent plays a creature that activates evolve for their Simic manipulator, I use {Thrull Parasite's} ability to remove the +1/+1 counter but they use manipulator's ability to remove the counter and steal my thrull, what happens?
End result: your opponent gets our thrull.
Explanation: you use your thrull's ability after evolve resolves. You have nothing left to do until it resolves, so you pass priority. Your opponent has priority now, and he/she activates the manipulator's ability while your thrull's ability is still on the stack (in real life, your opponent would just say "in response" when you activate the thrull's ability, instead of all of this. I am just going into detail.)
As a cost to activate the manipulator's ability, the +1/+1 counter is removed. After activating the manipulator's ability, our opponent is done reaponding, so he/she passes priority back to you. You also have nothing left to do so the stack starts resolving from the top down (whatever was placed last resolves first). The stack looks like this:
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TOP
Manipulator's ability
Thrull's ability
BOTTOM
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So the manipulator's ability reaolves first. Now he has your guy, and there is no counter.
Next the thrull's ability tries to resolve, but it fizzles because there is no legal target anymore (the counter is gone).
Spells and abilities check for legal targets/conditions to be met before and after being activated/cast/triggered. So even though there was a counter when you activated the thrull's ability, there isn't one when it tries to resolve. So it fizzles.
If there was more than one counter on manipulator then the thrulls ability would still go through. Just noting that.
Yep it would still go through. As long as you put the ability on the stack, it doesn't matter if your opponent gains control of the thrull before his ability resolves....the counter will get removed (as long as there is still a counter to remove, of course! ;))!
So I have {Web of Inertia} out and my friend casts two spells, I use {Stonecloaker} to exile one and then return it to my hand but then he says he exiles the other one in response to me exiling and attacks. Can he do that?
Quote from: Malleo on January 23, 2013, 01:54:01 AM
So I have {Web of Inertia} out and my friend casts two spells, I use {Stonecloaker} to exile one and then return it to my hand but then he says he exiles the other one in response to me exiling and attacks. Can he do that?
Well, no he can't use {web of inertia}'s exile trigger in response to anything. It's not an instead speed effect, it triggers at the beginning of the combat phase and is put on the stack at that time.
As for the rest, it really depends on when your opponent cast his spells and when you flashed in stonecloaker. If all of this happened before combat, and thus before web of inertia's trigger, he will be able to exile the 2nd card in his graveyard in order to attack if it's still in the graveyard when combat rolls around and the web effect occurs. If web of inertia's trigger has already resolved, he can't go back and un-resolve it by exiling a card after the fact and pretending the web's effect didn't already happen.
Quote from: Malleo on January 23, 2013, 01:54:01 AM
So I have {Web of Inertia} out and my friend casts two spells, I use {Stonecloaker} to exile one and then return it to my hand but then he says he exiles the other one in response to me exiling and attacks. Can he do that?
So...lemme get this straight. Your opponent casts 2 spells and they both resolve. So he has 2 cards in the graveyard now. I think that is what the situation is...but here is what I think you are asking:
"Can I exile the card he chooses for {Web of Inertia} so he can't attack?" Short answer: As long as your opponent has a card to exile in his graveyard, he can attack you. Here is what happens in your situation:
{Web of Inertia}'s trigger goes on the stack, at the begining of the first combat phase. The stack looks like this:
1) web's ability
While it is still on the stack, you cast {Stonecloaker}. The stack looks like this:
1) stonecloak (he has not entered the battlefield yet; still waiting to resolve)
2) web's ability
Now stonecloak enters the battlefield, and his 2 etb abilities trigger. The stack looks like this:
1) stonecload ability
2) stonecloak ability
3) web's ability
The first 2 abilities on the stack now reaolve. You exile a card from his graveyard so there is 1 left. You return stonecloaker to your hand with its other ability. The stack now only has the web's ability on it, once again. it looks like this:
1) Web's ability
Now you do not have enough mana to cast stonecloaker again, so the {Web of Inertia} trigger resolves. your opponent exiles the 1 card remaining in his graveyard and attacks you.
Your opponent choosing which card to exile is part of the web of inertia's ability resolving, so once your opponent chooses which card to exile, it is too late to prevent him from attackig. However, you can respond to the web's ability BEFORE the opponent chooses, while it is on the stack and has not resolved yet. You may use this chance to exile as many cards as you can from his graveyard. But if even 1 is left, he can still choose to exile it when the web's ability resolves, and attack you.
Does this answer your question, or did I assume wrong? I was not clear on the situation you described so forgive me.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on January 23, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
Quote from: Malleo on January 23, 2013, 01:54:01 AM
So I have {Web of Inertia} out and my friend casts two spells, I use {Stonecloaker} to exile one and then return it to my hand but then he says he exiles the other one in response to me exiling and attacks. Can he do that?
So...lemme get this straight. Your opponent casts 2 spells and they both resolve. So he has 2 cards in the graveyard now. I think that is what the situation is...but here is what I think you are asking:
"Can I exile the card he chooses for {Web of Inertia} so he can't attack?" Short answer: As long as your opponent has a card to exile in his graveyard, he can attack you. Here is what happens in your situation:
{Web of Inertia}'s trigger goes on the stack, at the begining of the first combat phase. The stack looks like this:
1) web's ability
While it is still on the stack, you cast {Stonecloaker}. The stack looks like this:
1) stonecloak (he has not entered the battlefield yet; still waiting to resolve)
2) web's ability
Now stonecloak enters the battlefield, and his 2 etb abilities trigger. The stack looks like this:
1) stonecload ability
2) stonecloak ability
3) web's ability
The first 2 abilities on the stack now reaolve. You exile a card from his graveyard so there is 1 left. You return stonecloaker to your hand with its other ability. The stack now only has the web's ability on it, once again. it looks like this:
1) Web's ability
Now you do not have enough mana to cast stonecloaker again, so the {Web of Inertia} trigger resolves. your opponent exiles the 1 card remaining in his graveyard and attacks you.
Your opponent choosing which card to exile is part of the web of inertia's ability resolving, so once your opponent chooses which card to exile, it is too late to prevent him from attackig. However, you can respond to the web's ability BEFORE the opponent chooses, while it is on the stack and has not resolved yet. You may use this chance to exile as many cards as you can from his graveyard. But if even 1 is left, he can still choose to exile it when the web's ability resolves, and attack you.
Does this answer your question, or did I assume wrong? I was not clear on the situation you described so forgive me.
Actually this is a good answer but I exiled his card as soon as it hit his graveyard
What happened was I exiled the first card and then he said he started his combat phase and exiled the other card
Quote from: Malleo on January 23, 2013, 10:31:44 AM
What happened was I exiled the first card and then he said he started his combat phase and exiled the other card
As long as there is a card left in his graveyard he can exile it at the beggining of his combat in order to attack.
Quote from: scarsabrex on January 23, 2013, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Malleo on January 23, 2013, 10:31:44 AM
What happened was I exiled the first card and then he said he started his combat phase and exiled the other card
As long as there is a card left in his graveyard he can exile it at the beggining of his combat in order to attack.
My main question is can he start his combat phase with cards on the stack?
If you cast an instant like {Murder}, does that then result in a stack on the affected creature, making the Murder-card have it's effect first, thus preventing potential creature card-effects to take place? For example if I use Murder on a creature-spell such as {Seller of Songbirds} - will I then prevent that creature from being summoned AND prevent the token from entering the battlefield?
No. You cannot target a creature spell with {Murder}. Once the {Seller of Songbirds} enters the battlefield, it's ability triggers and goes onto the stack. You can respond with a kill spell, which will happen before the tokens, but he will still get tokens unless you {Stifle} or {Trickbind} to stop the {Seller of Songbirds} trigger resolving from the stack.
Got it! Thanks
I attack with a {engulfing slagwurm}. The defending player blocks with a {gomazoa}. He then activates the {gomazoa}'s ability in response to the {engulfing slagwurm}'s triggered ability.
How would this play out?
My thoughts were that he'd have to activate the {gomazoa}'s ability in response to him declaring his block.
Yur friend would be correct. Blocks are declared, then the slag's trigger goes on the stack. When your opponent gets priority, he or she can activate an ability like the one you mentioned. His ability will still resolve though, after they leave. The creature is gone, so it can't be destroyed; but you still gain the life.
So my friend plays {Consuming Aberration} when I have 0 cards in my GY but as soon as its death goes on the stack he plays a spell and makes me mill, does death due to 0 toughness use the stack?
No, it does not use the stack. Creatures with 0 toughness are sent to the graveyard as a state-based action. You cannot "respond" to state-based actions. In the same way, you could not "respond" to your life being 0 by casting {Sphinx's Revelation} for 1.
How does the stack work with a creature like {Hatred}? Can I wait to see if the spell gets countered before paying the life?
Quote from: Stoneco1d869 on February 07, 2013, 09:32:35 AM
How does the stack work with a creature like {Hatred}? Can I wait to see if the spell gets countered before paying the life?
First off, it's not a creature, secondly you must pay the life as you play the spell, as an additional cost, so no you can't wait to see if its countered prior to paying the life.
Scotch is right, all costs must be paid prior to casting a spell. This includes additional costs. The wording on {Hatred} might make it seem like you can pay afterwards, but take a look at the oracle text. That will clear things up.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on February 07, 2013, 10:21:54 AM
Scotch is right, all costs must be paid prior to casting a spell. This includes additional costs. The wording on {Hatred} might make it seem like you can pay afterwards, but take a look at the oracle text. That will clear things up.
Yeah basically because of the wording I was wondering how exactly the spell would play out. Thanks.
Now cards with the split second second effect cannot be countered because nO card effects (accept mana abilities) can be activated. True or untrue?
Quote from: Doom lord on February 10, 2013, 01:55:53 PM
Now cards with the split second second effect cannot be countered because nO card effects (accept mana abilities) can be activated. True or untrue?
Not necessarily. Split second will not stop triggered abilities from countering it (such as {Counterbalance}) but it will prevent a card from being cast, like a {Counterspell}. It also will not stop "special actions", such as Morph (for cards like {Voidmage Apprentice}). It's not impossible to stop split second, but it is very difficult.
If an echantment is cast on my creature such as {Pacifism} and I cast {Cloudshift} to exile my creature. When does the creature exiled come back? Will it come back after the enchantment resolves or does it come back when cloudshift resolves but before the enchantment?
What if you {cloud shift} while the creature has an oppentents enchantment on it will it remove the chant or will the chant flicker out with the creature?
The enchantment would go to the grave and stay there
Quote from: NillaWafers on March 15, 2012, 03:39:34 PM
So complicated you have to use paper!? I mean I've been in a game with several strong Dimir decks and nothing ever got that haywire!
That just sounds horrifying!!
These types of things usually happen explicitly in non standard formats, such as commander. And sometimes it gets crazy and I've been in situations much crazier( for your sake, don't EVER play warp world, the whole table will rage) , just know what the rulings would be with cards that you play with and you should be fine
Quote from: BlackJester on May 24, 2012, 04:20:21 PM
You betcha!
Older players, or players returning to the game, might get tripped up on this because combat damage actually used to use the stack.
There was a time where you could attack with a {Ball Lightning}, put the combat damage on the stack, and fling it for another 6 damage. It only changed fairly recently too. (Recent is pretty subjective, anyone have the rules change date?)
I don't know the date, but I believe it was in tenth edition when they made changes like that
I happened to read about this yesterday; they changed it in Magic 2010.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a
What helped me finally understand the stack was DOTFP with the visualizations, once I saw the actual stack I understood
So, say I play a card like {Browbeat} . Can I wait till after the opponent chooses to either, pay the 5 life or let me make a target player draw three cards, to play {Increasing Vengeance} ? So the opponent takes the 5 life because he doesn't want me to gain the cards then I copy it to lay on the pressure to let me draw 3. Or, will the opponent be able to chose for both cards after I copy it even after he decides on the 5 life?
Quote from: Ramusvincini on March 11, 2013, 06:23:55 PM
So, say I play a card like {Browbeat} . Can I wait till after the opponent chooses to either, pay the 5 life or let me make a target player draw three cards, to play {Increasing Vengeance} ? So the opponent takes the 5 life because he doesn't want me to gain the cards then I copy it to lay on the pressure to let me draw 3. Or, will the opponent be able to chose for both cards after I copy it even after he decides on the 5 life?
I believe you must copy before the opponet decides, because the decision would be made upon resolution. The spell must be copied on the stack so you could copy browbeat and have your opponent make 2 decisions but they must be on the stack together before either is decided upon.
^ this is correct. The decision of taking damage or allowing the draw is the result of {Browbeat}'s resolution. By the time a player gets priority after the decision is made, the spell will be fully resolved and too late to be copied, as it is no longer on the stack. You'll have to copy it before it begins to resolve!
Ok, hopefully this is not a stupid question. Ran into a situation today that roused questions. The active player attacks me and I chose to not block and take the damage even though I do have creatures that have the ability to block (stupid deathtouch). After I declare no blockers he casts multiple {Titanic Growth} potentially dealing enough damage to end the game. Do I have the ability to declare a blocker a second time to stop the attack or is blocking a one shot deal? (I do understand I can cast instants to counter it but I had none available at the time)
Quote from: Wingnut on March 19, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
Ok, hopefully this is not a stupid question. Ran into a situation today that roused questions. The active player attacks me and I chose to not block and take the damage even though I do have creatures that have the ability to block (stupid deathtouch). After I declare no blockers he casts multiple {Titanic Growth} potentially dealing enough damage to end the game. Do I have the ability to declare a blocker a second time to stop the attack or is blocking a one shot deal? (I do understand I can cast instants to counter it but I had none available at the time)
I'm afraid once you pass up blockers, you're done. You say no blockers, and the opponent (active player) receives priority, and it goes to the combat damage step.
That was my understanding also, I just wasn't sure if I then had another opportunity as he had cast more instants. I am correct in saying that I could have then cast an instant (if I had them available) to counter or would I have been completely finished? Lets say {Safe Passage}, {Murder}, or the likes.
Quote from: Wingnut on March 19, 2013, 05:27:18 PM
That was my understanding also, I just wasn't sure if I then had another opportunity as he had cast more instants. I am correct in saying that I could have then cast an instant (if I had them available) to counter or would I have been completely finished? Lets say {Safe Passage}, {Murder}, or the likes.
After the declare blockers step is over, players gain priority (starting with the active player) and may cast spells. You would be able to cast instants or activate abilities if you had them available.
Yes, after he finishes casting his instants, he has to pass priority to you. This gives you a chance to cast instants of your own to stop his evil plans.
Edit: dangit Keyeto, always 2 seconds ahead of me! *angry fist shake*
Quote from: Gorzo on March 19, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
Yes, after he finishes casting his instants, he has to pass priority to you. This gives you a chance to cast instants of your own to stop his evil plans.
Edit: dangit Keyeto, always 2 seconds ahead of me! *angry fist shake*
Bwahahaha! 😈
Nobody posts in Rules without the Mighty Keyeto noticing!
Perfect, that's how it played out, but kind of got us thinking afterward. Appreciate the time.
This was very useful. Thank you!
I HAD TO DO IT 😈