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Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: michael19 on June 26, 2013, 05:43:21 PM

Title: When Tokens Die
Post by: michael19 on June 26, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Do tokens go to your graveyard when they die?
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Birdbrain on June 26, 2013, 05:54:51 PM
They briefly touch the graveyard. But as soon as they do, they cease to exist
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: MisterJH on June 26, 2013, 06:12:03 PM
Yes, but you cannot respond to it. They enter the GY, if there is a card that triggers when something enters the GY. However as soon as they enter, they disappear off the face of the earth, they wont be there if you try to exile a card from a GY or reanimate it or something.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: michael19 on July 08, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
But what about the card {Rest in Peace}? It says that if a creature OR a token dies, it's exiled instead, which kind of implies that a token would STAY in the GY.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: TheRagingMage on July 08, 2013, 09:13:27 AM
Quote from: michael19 on July 08, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
But what about the card {Rest in Peace}? It says that if a creature OR a token dies, it's exiled instead, which kind of implies that a token would STAY in the GY.
That just means that the token would never touch the grave before being exiled.  It would be exiled instead.  This stops effects that say "Whenever a creature dies."
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Paraluke on July 08, 2013, 12:15:35 PM
Yes, it's a replacement effect to prevent those graveyard triggers from happening.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 01:05:37 PM
If it didnt say token then only actual cards would be exiled and creature tokens would still trigger dies and morbid effects.

The exact moment a token dissapears is called a statebase check. Similar to when a creature with lethal damage on it or 0 toughness would die. A good example is {dryad militant}. If she is destroyed then the spell that destroyed her will not be exiled because she wasnt in play to exile it. If she is dealt lethal damage then she exiles the spell. This is because lethal damage doesnt kill a creature, a statebase action of putting it in the graveyard due to damage is what kills it.

Statebased checks occur whenever a player would recieve priority. So if any play could cast an instant then then it would remove the token from existance, kill the creature with lethal damage or no toughness, and make a player lose due to no life.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: TheRagingMage on July 08, 2013, 11:22:19 PM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 01:05:37 PM
If it didnt say token then only actual cards would be exiled and creature tokens would still trigger dies and morbid effects.

The exact moment a token dissapears is called a statebase check. Similar to when a creature with lethal damage on it or 0 toughness would die. A good example is {dryad militant}. If she is destroyed then the spell that destroyed her will not be exiled because she wasnt in play to exile it. If she is dealt lethal damage then she exiles the spell. This is because lethal damage doesnt kill a creature, a statebase action of putting it in the graveyard due to damage is what kills it.

Statebased checks occur whenever a player would recieve priority. So if any play could cast an instant then then it would remove the token from existance, kill the creature with lethal damage or no toughness, and make a player lose due to no life.
That isn't true.  The state based action to destroy the dryad wouldn't take effect until a player gained priority (in this case, after the spell resolves).  As the final step of any non permanent spell resolving, it is put into the graveyard.  The dryad's ability would then trigger, instead exiling it.  Then a player would gain priority, and the state based actions would be checked and triggered abilities resolved.  The state based action checking the damage on the dryad would kill her, but her ability still activated.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: TheRagingMage on July 08, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
The one question I have is that triggered abilities are not checked until after a player recieves priority, so would the spell that killed the dryad just wait until after state based actions are checked, and then be exiled by her ability?
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 11:27:22 PM
Quote from: Gleemax on July 08, 2013, 11:22:19 PM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 01:05:37 PM
If it didnt say token then only actual cards would be exiled and creature tokens would still trigger dies and morbid effects.

The exact moment a token dissapears is called a statebase check. Similar to when a creature with lethal damage on it or 0 toughness would die. A good example is {dryad militant}. If she is destroyed then the spell that destroyed her will not be exiled because she wasnt in play to exile it. If she is dealt lethal damage then she exiles the spell. This is because lethal damage doesnt kill a creature, a statebase action of putting it in the graveyard due to damage is what kills it.

Statebased checks occur whenever a player would recieve priority. So if any play could cast an instant then then it would remove the token from existance, kill the creature with lethal damage or no toughness, and make a player lose due to no life.
That isn't true.  The state based action to destroy the dryad wouldn't take effect until a player gained priority (in this case, after the spell resolves).  As the final step of any non permanent spell resolving, it is put into the graveyard.  The dryad's ability would then trigger, instead exiling it.  Then a player would gain priority, and the state based actions would be checked and triggered abilities resolved.  The state based action checking the damage on the dryad would kill her, but her ability still activated.
Congrats you just said the same thing I did while trying to say Im wrong. Read a little closer. Destory equals no exile...damage equals yes exile.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 11:30:40 PM
The resolution of a spell includes doing effects and putting the spell in the appropriate zone. Statebase will be checked before and after reaolution. This is because a priority pass with no action back to the controller of the top of the stack cause that top peice to immediately resolve and then priority gets passed around again if there is more to resolve, if not it is retained by the active player.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: TheRagingMage on July 08, 2013, 11:35:00 PM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 11:27:22 PM
Quote from: Gleemax on July 08, 2013, 11:22:19 PM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 01:05:37 PM
If it didnt say token then only actual cards would be exiled and creature tokens would still trigger dies and morbid effects.

The exact moment a token dissapears is called a statebase check. Similar to when a creature with lethal damage on it or 0 toughness would die. A good example is {dryad militant}. If she is destroyed then the spell that destroyed her will not be exiled because she wasnt in play to exile it. If she is dealt lethal damage then she exiles the spell. This is because lethal damage doesnt kill a creature, a statebase action of putting it in the graveyard due to damage is what kills it.

Statebased checks occur whenever a player would recieve priority. So if any play could cast an instant then then it would remove the token from existance, kill the creature with lethal damage or no toughness, and make a player lose due to no life.
That isn't true.  The state based action to destroy the dryad wouldn't take effect until a player gained priority (in this case, after the spell resolves).  As the final step of any non permanent spell resolving, it is put into the graveyard.  The dryad's ability would then trigger, instead exiling it.  Then a player would gain priority, and the state based actions would be checked and triggered abilities resolved.  The state based action checking the damage on the dryad would kill her, but her ability still activated.
Congrats you just said the same thing I did while trying to say Im wrong. Read a little closer. Destory equals no exile...damage equals yes exile.
Oops sorry. I see what you were saying now.
Title: Re: When Tokens Die
Post by: Kaleo42 on July 08, 2013, 11:36:57 PM
Its ok. This crap is confusing to explain since once you get it it seems so simple.