Is it possible these 2 could rival? The new garruk just seems so powerful with that -3.
Link to new garruk: http://www.mythicspoiler.com/m14/
JtMS: {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}
Quote from: Iandtormentor on June 25, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Is it possible these 2 could rival? The new garruk just seems so powerful with that -3.
No way. Too expensive cmc.
Quote from: bravado883 on June 25, 2013, 08:34:39 PM
I think he's awesome, but it will be tough for a 6 CMC walker to hit the eternal formats the way {Jace, the Mind Sculpter} has. I'd imagine Garruk will do something in standard. And I know his minus abilities are great, but his +1 is also amazing! A little bit more ramp and he's golden.
we will have
2 mana dorks in standard when he comes out (well actually 3 but the third will be going out soon afterwords)
Quote from: NyghtHawk on June 25, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: Iandtormentor on June 25, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Is it possible these 2 could rival? The new garruk just seems so powerful with that -3.
No way. Too expensive cmc.
mana dorks/ramp=this card out smashing down very soon ;)
Quote from: Iandtormentor on June 25, 2013, 08:40:47 PM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on June 25, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: Iandtormentor on June 25, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Is it possible these 2 could rival? The new garruk just seems so powerful with that -3.
No way. Too expensive cmc.
mana dorks/ramp=this card out smashing down very soon ;)
but I can agree with that he needs those little dorks or else he has trouble.
Quote from: KangaRod on June 25, 2013, 08:48:29 PM
Plain and simple. Not a .loving. chance. 6 mana is twice the mana that 4 mana is.
if I'm not mistaken 4x2=8. ;) so everybody on here said the same thing :( ok that's fine guess I just had a tad bit of hope but alas...
Quote from: KangaRod on June 25, 2013, 08:55:39 PM
Except you don't get to refill your hand when it empties.
Statistically speaking, about 1:3 draws is a land.
So lets say you keep a 3 land hand. By turn 4 you will have drawn a 4th land. You will however, not see your 5th until turn 7, and your 6th until turn 10.
Ramp cards change the math a little bit, but generally, getting to 6 mana is about twice as difficult as getting to 4 mana.
ok lol I get it :-\
Magic math...lol
Also, he's not Blue. Jace is good because he is blue. People can deny as much as they want, and current Standard says otherwise, but Blue is the most powerful color in Magic. He also has 4 abilities, all of which are extremely relevant. New Garruk is decent, but Mind Sculptor is a completely different caliber.
Garruk is really good. He will see much play, but it isn't close to JtMS. Wizards will probably never make a Planeswalker as good as him again.
{Jace, the Mind Sculptor} will forever and always be the best walker. By all accounts, {Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker} is the most powerful, but his cost is prohibitive.
The next closest in playability is probably {Liliana of the Veil}, and lets be honest - she doesn't make every deck she's in better like Jace. 3 mana Edict is just OK for Standard/Modern play, symmetrical discard is good for those types of decks. Jace's repeatable {Brainstorm} is far and away superior. -1 {Unsummon} is wicked for tempo.
Jace was pushed SUPER hard on blue, but for the sake of argument - it was an experiment. Planeswalkers were introduced 2 years prior, and they didn't really know how powerful they could be. They design sets nearly 16 months in advance, so it puts them extremely close to their conception.
They know better now. {Domri Rade} and others might be big-time in Standard. Eternally I don't know if anything else will be as good as JtMS, a sigh of relief for some. I personally believe it's been outclassed at this point, and would enjoy seeing it hated out of most formats - which is happening routinely in Legacy.
Quote from: Taysby on June 26, 2013, 12:08:46 AM
Didn't jtms get banned from standard after just 2 weeks?
Not even close, he reigned for some time actually. Cawblade was so dominant though that he and {Stoneforge Mystic} were banned 2 months before rotation.
{Jace, the Mind Sculptor} and {Stoneforge Mystic} were banned on July 1st, 2011. Both debuted in February 5th, 2010.
Garruk will be fun though, he won't match JtMS at all, on any levels. But this will go in the cube. My commander, it shall be played around, and it will be lots of fun. I mean who doesn't like a {Progentius} off the new Garruk.
It is 6 mana and can't protect itself at all, it may see some eternal format play (although I doubt it). I ultimately believe it's going to be a casual staple - if that is a thing or not. It'd probably be worth grabbing a few for the possibility of it being broken eventually.
Him plus {Doubling Season} plus zero cost creature could be fun
I forgot which one, but there is an Ouphe that doubles the counters on target permanent. It would good with this card. :)
{Gilder Bairn}
Yup, that one! Thanks! :)
Well that would go good with every planeswalker, but you get my point.
It curves nicely into {Summoner's Pact} also. Cast Garruk +1 (dig for something), {Summoner's Pact} on opponents endstep. Untap, pay for it upkeep, -3, drop bombs.
Another to boost him maybe a {Vorel of the Hull Clade}
Quote from: Vindog on June 30, 2013, 06:14:14 PM
Another to boost him maybe a {Vorel of the Hull Clade}
Vorel wouldn't help him :(.
Quote from: Dudecore on June 25, 2013, 10:52:12 PM
{Jace, the Mind Sculptor} will forever and always be the best walker. By all accounts, {Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker} is the most powerful, but his cost is prohibitive.
The next closest in playability is probably {Liliana of the Veil}, and lets be honest - she doesn't make every deck she's in better like Jace. 3 mana Edict is just OK for Standard/Modern play, symmetrical discard is good for those types of decks. Jace's repeatable {Brainstorm} is far and away superior. -1 {Unsummon} is wicked for tempo.
Jace was pushed SUPER hard on blue, but for the sake of argument - it was an experiment. Planeswalkers were introduced 2 years prior, and they didn't really know how powerful they could be. They design sets nearly 16 months in advance, so it puts them extremely close to their conception.
They know better now. {Domri Rade} and others might be big-time in Standard. Eternally I don't know if anything else will be as good as JtMS, a sigh of relief for some. I personally believe it's been outclassed at this point, and would enjoy seeing it hated out of most formats - which is happening routinely in Legacy.
jtms 1st place
2nd is {elspeth knight errant} she has 2 plus abilities with no down side.
{Jace, the Mind Sculptor} in constructed is only legal in vintage and legacy and those formats have {Natural Order} a much better choice than the new garruk but in modern it can be a cool way to put {Progenitus} out in a fun budget "just for lolz" deck and in standard he will be best used as a 6 mana getting all the creatures
Statisticly speaking lands appear every 1:2.33 not 1:3 if you run 24 so if you have 3 mana in a 7 card hand, and there is a 45% cance that you will have an arbor elf if you run 4 and if you run another mana dork you will get 1 each hand. And if you have a playset of 2 different mana ramping spells you will get 1 in each hand. So therefore if you draw 2 lands and use mana ramp you can get Garruk out by atleast turn 5.
Here's another: will the new garruk be as good as {Chandra Nalaar}? CMC5, comes in with six, and has a totally boss ultimate?
Elf ramp has board presence and plenty of mana, maybe that is going to crop up
Quote from: KangaRod on July 02, 2013, 10:23:48 AM
Listen to what I am saying. I cannot make it any clearer.
It is about twice as difficult to get to 6 mana as it is to 4 mana.
How you go from 4 mana to 6 mana is irrelevant, and I'm aware it's done from time to time, but you need to keep in mind. Naya Blitz or Gruul Aggro will have done probably 15 damage by turn 4 if left unchecked.
If you spend all your time ramping, you will simply have lost the game by 5 mana.
What do you think defenders are for, ive even gotten to 6 mana running 22 lands in my red deck wins deck. How would you know if you didn't even use him yet, and its not so hard because if you have 8 mana dorks 8 Ramp spells and 4 new garruk thats 20 spells so you have 6 Agrois creatures like {kalonian tusker} which comes out in m14 {G}{G} 3/3, and 4 defenders you can run 4 huge creatures, 22 forests and 4 utility lands. I think that would work easily.
Quote from: KangaRod on July 02, 2013, 07:56:08 PM
Just let them argue that this garruk is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it's clearly not worth it
Your the one who said it's too hard to get to 6 mana. Im saying it's not. In dotp there is a crazy awesome ramp deck and if you put the new garruk in that it would be awesome. Ive gotten to 6 mana by turn 3 with it. It may be hard for a blue deck but 6 mana in a green deck is like getting 4 mana in a blue deck.
I see a bit of the timeless mtg Timmy/Spike debate here. None of you are wrong per say, it's just two different approaches to deck building and play. I love building ramp decks but in my (very limited) experience Kanga is correct in his assessment on timing. Despite this I couldn't care less for playing competitively so I gravitate to building a deck that could pull of some great big beast (or green planeswalker in this case). It's like an engineer trying to convince an artist that the tower of Pisa is a mistake. When it fails to stay upright the artist says "wow, that is even more striking" and the engineer says "arrrgh! Your so obtuse!"
Sooooo, this Garruk really is unplayable, IMO lol. You're not going to see many, if any, 6 drops outside of control and frites. Maybe some on the higher end of midrange. Honesty, ramp won't be a thing, I don't think. Not enough value, really. Hoof is rotating, and the hydra in m14 doesn't even have an X in its cmc, so you'll be ramping to Garruk just to drop a 3/3 risked or something equally underwhelming. I've already dismissed the new Garruk. The new Chandra, on the other hand.... 😍