I ran into a scenario at my LGS that was very weird.
My opponent attacked with a {silverblade paladin}, which was soulbound. She activated {vault of the archangel} giving it deathtouch (and lifelink). I double blocked with a {restoration angel} and a 5/5 wurm token. Can she assign one damage each due to the deathtouch? This was a strange scenario that I had never seen before. I know you have to deal lethal and I'm now starting to feel that one damage should be enough, but wanted some clarification.
If you read 510.1c, it says you need to assign lethal damage to first blocker before you can do so to the second.
However, having death touch would be effectively dealing lethal damage. So the double strike first strike portion will kill the first creature, while the regular strike will kill the second. It is not a matter of dealing one damage each, but the double strike.
If the death touch creature does not have double strike, I believe it can only deal 2 damage to the first creature, effectively dealing lethal damage due to death touch.
From rules:
510.1c (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=510.1c): ...If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.
702.2b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=702.2b): Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d.
Lets wait for the experts.
Yes as far as I am aware with those 2 rules combined, you could effectively kill both creatures with the first strike of the double strike. Just be aware that since it doesn't have trample no damage will be dealt to the defending player
I have arrived and would like to remind you if you are unsure then it's generally best not to answer.
Double strike: deals first strike and normal combat damage.
Deathtouch: any amount of damage dealt to a creature it considered lethal.
Trample: any remaining damage after assigning lethal to all blockers may be assigned to the defending player or planeswalker.
{wasteland viper} attacks with {rancor} and is paired with {silverblade paladin}.
{restoration angel} and {tree of redemption} are assigned as blockers.
Wastelands controller assigns 3 points of damage as they choose. Before dividing this damage though lethal must be assigned to one blocker, then the next blocker, and only then can it be assigned to the player. Deathtouch DOES MAKE ANY AMOUNT OF DAMAGE "LETHAL" allowing 1 point to be put on each blocker and 1 on the player.
That 1 point of deathtouch kills both blockers and the defending player loses one life.
In normal combat damage assigning since all blockers have been removed and trample is present all 3 points may be assigned to the defending player.
Quote from: Taysby on June 21, 2013, 01:36:26 PM
There were multiple threads before that got resolved where we decided that you had to assign lethal normal combat damage before deathtouch kicked in. Did the rules change?
Citation needed.
If you have deathtouch, 1 point of damage is lethal damage. So a deathtouch first striker can kill both of your creatures in the first stike combat damage by assigning 1 point to each, yes.
Ive read in multiple places that deathtouch+trample is so efficient because you can assign 1 damage and trample the rest... I dont have citation atm but its what ive always seen/been told/played by
Quote from: MisterJH on June 21, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Ive read in multiple places that deathtouch+trample is so efficient because you can assign 1 damage and trample the rest... I dont have citation atm but its what ive always seen/been told/played by
This is true
Dillon from Rogue T3ch uses this in both selesnya and naya auras for the kill. {Wasteland viper}'s bloof rush makes even your best blocks pointless.
Quote from: MisterJH on June 21, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Ive read in multiple places that deathtouch+trample is so efficient because you can assign 1 damage and trample the rest... I dont have citation atm but its what ive always seen/been told/played by
Are you sure? I thought you still have to deal lethal to blocking creature before you can trample over it to opponent
Quote from: Agarrita80 on June 21, 2013, 11:30:35 PM
Quote from: MisterJH on June 21, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Ive read in multiple places that deathtouch+trample is so efficient because you can assign 1 damage and trample the rest... I dont have citation atm but its what ive always seen/been told/played by
Are you sure? I thought you still have to deal lethal to blocking creature before you can trample over it to opponent
You have to deal lethal damage indeed. Death touch makes one damage = lethal for you though, meaning you need to assign 1 damage per blocker. I'll be back with the ruling in a moment
Quote from: Agarrita80 on June 21, 2013, 11:30:35 PM
Quote from: MisterJH on June 21, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Ive read in multiple places that deathtouch+trample is so efficient because you can assign 1 damage and trample the rest... I dont have citation atm but its what ive always seen/been told/played by
Are you sure? I thought you still have to deal lethal to blocking creature before you can trample over it to opponent
Yes
702.2b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=702.2b): Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d.
But you have to get passed the creatures big butt first
Not with deathtouch/trample you dont
Ok now look up trample ruling
702.18b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=702.18b): The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. The attacking creature's controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can't assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.
Example: A 2/2 creature that can block an additional creature blocks two attackers: a 1/1 with no abilities and a 3/3 with trample. The active player could assign 1 damage from the first attacker and 1 damage from the second to the blocking creature, and 2 damage to the defending player from the creature with trample.
Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.
702.2b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=702.2b): Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d.
So, you need to assign lethal damage to each blocker before assigning remaining damage to player. With deathtouch, any non-zero damage is considered lethal regardless of blocker's toughness, meaning you have to assign any non-zero amount of damage to each blocker before assigning damage to the player. As 1 is the lowest non-zero amount of damage, you must assign at least 1 to each blocker.
I'm just going to have to build a quick deck on MTGO with deathtouch creatures and rancor and and test this out. I'll get back to you Monday morning.
Lol buddy, I have shown you the rules saying "you have to assign lethal damage; any non-zero damage is lethal", what more do you need? If MTGO doesn't work this way, I suggest you go ahead and report a bug
Quote from: Mentonin on June 22, 2013, 12:12:12 AM
Lol buddy, I have shown you the rules saying "you have to assign lethal damage; any non-zero damage is lethal", what more do you need? If MTGO doesn't work this way, I suggest you go ahead and report a bug
Agreed. MTGO is not a reliable source for rulings. I've seen people come here thinking that sacrificing creatures for effects doesn't set off "when a creature dies" triggers, because of MTGO. There's nothing more reliable than the rulings, which Mentonin has provided.
The fact is, Deathtouch and Trample work very well together. You assign only lethal damage for trample, the rest goes to their face (if you choose). Deathtouch makes it do that "lethal damage" is any nonzero amount of damage. Simple as that.
Ok I was wrong. An when I'm Erin I say I'm wrong. Looks like the rules changed in 2011. Here is an example I found researching ...
Example: Yavimaya Wurm (a 6/4 creature with trample) is equipped with Gorgon Flail (an Equipment that grants the equipped creature +1/+1 and deathtouch). It attacks a player and is blocked by Siege Mastodon (a 3/5 creature). Yavimaya Wurm must assign at least 1 damage to the Mastodon. Its remaining damage may be assigned as its controller chooses between the Mastodon and the defending player. Notably, the Wurm may assign 1 damage to the Mastodon and 6 damage to the defending player. After that damage is dealt to the Mastodon, the Mastodon will be destroyed.
I never knew such things! Makes me want to build a deathtouch trample deck even more!
And this is why you (I) run {Master of Cruelties} with {Kessig Wolf Run} in my jund deck
Quote from: Wally on June 23, 2013, 11:05:27 PM
And this is why you (I) run {Master of Cruelties} with {Kessig Wolf Run} in my jund deck
I'm not understanding the synergy here, can you explain what the wolf run does for the master??
It creates a lose-lose situation for your opponent. Either they don't block and they go to 1, or they do block and you can just give it trample. But master doesn't die and all the blockers do. And almost all the damage still goes trough.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on June 24, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
It creates a lose-lose situation for your opponent. Either they don't block and they go to 1, or they do block and you can just give it trample. But master doesn't die and all the blockers do. And almost all the damage still goes trough.
That makes sense, I didn't really see it that way, I was thinking more along the lines of his ability. I like that idea!!!
I just imagined those two with a {stensia bloodhall} on the battlefield. That would really tie the hands of your opponent.
But if the master attacks and is blocked then opponent doesn't go to 1 life regardless of trample
No but there is a possibility you can kill your opponent with him then, with enough damage :)
Quote from: Agarrita80 on June 24, 2013, 07:32:30 PM
But if the master attacks and is blocked then opponent doesn't go to 1 life regardless of trample
But the situation makes it so that they end up losing creatures, and possible more than they wanted to.
I think it would double strike both of them EACH.(Question: are you using a Selesnya deck?)