My friend played {Spelltwine} and played {Angel's Mercy} and {Dispel}. Does he have to counter {Angel's Mercy} or can {Dispel} counter itself?
He has to counter the {Angel's Mercy}. A counter spell cannot counter itself.
114.4. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=114.4.): A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
Quote from: The1337Magician on June 14, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
My friend played {Spelltwine} and played {Angel's Mercy} and {Dispel}. Does he have to counter {Angel's Mercy} or can {Dispel} counter itself?
Nothing gets countered. He is the caster of both spells. {Dispel} goes on the stack with no valid targets, followed by {Angel's Mercy}. Angel's Mercy resolves, Dispel fizzles.
He can counter his own spells, so he could counter the mercy if he so wanted. He cannot place the dispel in the stack without targets though
I think thread starter has to elaborate on the situation and the sequence as it goes. There is still some guesswork on the way he says it.
If we so assume that spelltwine targets those two cards, then keyeto will be right since when he chose dispel he has to target, which by then only angel will be the only valid spell on the stack to be countered.
Since the copies can be cast in either order, can't he try casting Dispel first, fail due to a lack of targets, then cast Angel's Mercy?
Idk cuz can he even legally cast dispel without there being targets.?
If the order in spelltwine meant anything, he needs to pick a card in his grave before picking the one in the opponent's. So if his graveyard is angel's mercy and opponent's dispel, then he would have to dispel the Angela's mercy I guess.
But if not, I believe if he chose dispel, then angel's mercy it can be possible, since spelltwine did say "cast them if able".
He chooses in which order to cast them, no matter where each came from
Wouldn't they essentially be cast at the same time which means the counter wouldn't be cast able with no legal targets. {Spelltwine} even has a clause saying if able.
On the ruling for the card in question, it states that if one of the copies requires you to target a spell, you can target the other copy.
To be more specific it says you can cast the copies in either order and, if the second one requires to target a spell, he can target the first one
The text on {Spelltwine} says cat them if able. You can't cast a counter without a legal target so you would cast the angels mercy since you are able. I am not 100% sure if you have to check if you can cast dispel again or if since you checked it would just sit there
To be more specific, the only spells in his graveyard were {Dispel} and {Cancel}. And the only spell in my graveyard was {Angel's Mercy}. So he casts the two previously mentioned cards, but says mine first, so doesn't he have to counter mine?
If you choose the order u choose dispel then mercy. So mercy resolve first then dispel fizzle with no targets.
Quote from: Paraluke on June 16, 2013, 11:23:36 AM
If you choose the order u choose dispel then mercy. So mercy resolve first then dispel fizzle with no targets.
dispel does not fizzle, because it cannot be even cast without legal targets. The real question is: can you say you check dispel first (you won't be able to cast it), then cast the mercy, then not check if you are able to cast dispel again?
I should stop replying stuff for today, my brain is not working normally. Sorry, I actually wanted to say not caster (if anyone is to go by my replies earlier).
I feel like he cannot legally use spelltwine in this case without using a counterspell on the {angel's mercy}, but im no rules expert.. I jus seems like all the replies are pointing to it being illegal
Being the caster of spelltwine he picks how the next two spells are put on the stack then as spelltwine says "cast them if able" if mercy is first on the stack it resolves first. Dispel has no target and is unable to cast so nothing happens.
I think the problem is that both copies go on the stack together as {spelltwine} resolves but you get to pick which goes off first. If the mercy goes off first, the dispel will counter hit the stack second with only one thing to target. That's my interpretation. I haven't seen a thread in such need of resolution since the {karona false god} - {control magic} thread. Where's the gavel of {gorzeyeto}???
Actually the caster of {Spelltwine} chooses the order. Here are the full gatherer rulings:
7/1/2012 Spelltwine has two targets: the instant or sorcery card in your graveyard and the one in an opponent's graveyard. You can't cast Spelltwine unless you can choose both legal targets.
7/1/2012 If one of Spelltwine's targets is illegal when Spelltwine tries to resolve, you'll still exile and copy the remaining legal target.
7/1/2012 The copies are created in exile and cast from exile. The cards remain exiled.
7/1/2012 You can cast the copies in either order.
7/1/2012 The copy you cast first will already be on the stack when you cast the other copy. If that spell targets a spell, you may choose the first copy as a legal target.
7/1/2012 If you cast a card "without paying its mana cost," you can't pay any alternative costs. You can pay additional costs such as kicker costs. If the card has mandatory additional costs, you must pay those.
7/1/2012 If the card has X in its mana cost, you must choose 0 as its value.
Yeah, he chooses the order. But can he choose the counter to be placed first (thus not being able to cast for no targets) or will he need to cast the mercy first, since he isn't able to cast the counter, then cast the counter now that he is able?
Quote from: Mentonin on June 17, 2013, 04:09:29 PM
Yeah, he chooses the order. But can he choose the counter to be placed first (thus not being able to cast for no targets) or will he need to cast the mercy first, since he isn't able to cast the counter, then cast the counter now that he is able?
I think he can play the counter and than play mercy.
Quote from: Kagain123 on June 16, 2013, 09:23:44 PM
Actually the caster of {Spelltwine} chooses the order. Here are the full gatherer rulings:
7/1/2012 Spelltwine has two targets: the instant or sorcery card in your graveyard and the one in an opponent's graveyard. You can't cast Spelltwine unless you can choose both legal targets.
7/1/2012 If one of Spelltwine's targets is illegal when Spelltwine tries to resolve, you'll still exile and copy the remaining legal target.
7/1/2012 The copies are created in exile and cast from exile. The cards remain exiled.
7/1/2012 You can cast the copies in either order.
7/1/2012 The copy you cast first will already be on the stack when you cast the other copy. If that spell targets a spell, you may choose the first copy as a legal target.
7/1/2012 If you cast a card "without paying its mana cost," you can't pay any alternative costs. You can pay additional costs such as kicker costs. If the card has mandatory additional costs, you must pay those.
7/1/2012 If the card has X in its mana cost, you must choose 0 as its value.
The key question here is can he legally choose to cast the dispel first? The reason for that being Spelltwine states "cast the copies if able" the only legal way to satisfy that statement is to cast dispel second targeting mercy unless dispel can target itself.
Based on the text, it seems that you must cast both if able. The only way to be able to cast the {dispel} is with a target and since the controller chooses which to cast first, in order to cast it fulfill the requirements of "cast the copies if able" text, you must first cast the {angels mercy}.
I may be wrong, but with the rules written the way they are and the text bein pretty straight forward, I would play it this way, unless a judge told me otherwise.
We need Keyeto!
Quote from: Mentonin on June 18, 2013, 04:59:21 PM
We need Keyeto!
This has gotten out of hand lol. What exactly are we disputing at this point?
Alright let me see if I can cover all of this, as far as this scenario goes.
First off, you can target the {Dispel} with {Spelltwine}. Nothing illegal about that. Nothing is being cast, just being targeted for exile.
THEN, the casting comes. You'll have to cast dispel second. It's simple, really. It says "cast them if able." You are not able to cast a counter spell without a valid target already on the stack.
You would have to cast the {Angel's Mercy} first, and then {Dispel}, targeting the Mercy.
Did that answer the remaining questions?
Yep. Thanks Keyeto!
Can you target {spelltwine} for the {dispel}?
You can't target spelltwine because it is already resolving. It is no longer on the stack.
If it is not on the stack, where is it?
Quote from: Mentonin on June 18, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
If it is not on the stack, where is it?
Sorry mentonin, I thought there was something off in my answer. Since you cannot normally cast spells targeting other spells while they are in the middle of resolving, I assumed that you couldn't in this case. However, this is not the case. I will explain why you are correct (you CAN target the spelltwine with a counterspell):
The reason you can't target spells while they are in the middle of resolving is that you can only cast spells while you have priority. However, even though you can't interact with spells while they are resolving, they stay on the stack. The last part of the resolution of a spell is it being sent to the graveyard. Now, the reason you are right and I am wrong is that spelltwine ignores normal timing restrictions, allowing you to target spelltwine with a counterspell WHILE it is in the middle of resolving. The reason you can do that is all a counterspell needs is a legal target on the stack. Spelltwine is on the stack so you could target it.
Now if you have {Dispel} as your target, you could not target spelltwine with it, since dispel can only target instants. In that case, you would have to cast the angel's mercy first. Then dispel becomes castable, so you are forced to counter it.
...hope all this crap makes sense. Basically you are not forced to couter angel's mercy if it is negate, because you can target spelltwine. But if it is dispel like in the example, you CAN'T target spelltwine, because spelltwine is a sorcery. So you must counter mercy.
RESOLVED (finally)
I hate to unresolved stuff, but if it was negate, how could you target {spelltwine}? If spelltwine is countered, then the effect of exiling cards from yours and your opponents graveyard would not resolve which is where you got the negate in the first place. It's a paradox. You can't counter spelltwine with a counter grabbed by spelltwine.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on June 19, 2013, 09:49:04 AM
I hate to unresolved stuff, but if it was negate, how could you target {spelltwine}? If spelltwine is countered, then the effect of exiling cards from yours and your opponents graveyard would not resolve which is where you got the negate in the first place. It's a paradox. You can't counter spelltwine with a counter grabbed by spelltwine.
You can't counter it, but you can target it. You exile the {Negate} and are forced to cast it if able. At this point, it has a legal target. {Spelltwine} has not fully resolved, and is still on the stack, so the {Negate} can target it. Spelltwine finishes resolving, then the remaining two spells are left on the stack. Negate is countered when it goes to resolve, since its only target (Spelltwine) is no longer legal.
So he could've grabbed {Counterspell} which was actually in his graveyard at the time to "counter" {Spelltwine} and then he would be able to cast {Angel's Mercy}?
Quote from: The1337Magician on June 19, 2013, 10:13:19 AM
So he could've grabbed {Counterspell} which was actually in his graveyard at the time to "counter" {Spelltwine} and then he would be able to cast {Angel's Mercy}?
Indeed. It's a really weird scenario, but it would work out.
I still think it will make the universe implode.