So Garruk starts out with 3 loyalty counters, but if he is dealt enough damage to destroy him, does he transform or die?
Thanks
In reality, he will transform, and THEN die. Not that it really matters, but you never know who'll be such a stickler for rules.
In reality since he isn't a creature he does not die but is only placed in the graveyard from the battlefield.
Actually he never would transform, his ability wouldn't even hit the stack
121.1b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=121.1b): The number of loyalty counters on a planeswalker on the battlefield indicates how much loyalty it has. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action.
603.3. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=603.3.): Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
So his ability would go off putting his loyalty to 0. His ability would trigger, but not go on the stack yet since nobody would receive priority yet, state is checked, garruk is put into the graveyard from the state check. His ability disappears from everywhere before it can even enter the stack
How does an ability trigger, but not on the stack? Unless I'm reading what you posted incorrectly, once it's triggered, it goes on the stack. Since it is a triggered ability, anyone can respond to it.
{Garruk Relentless}
Abilities are triggered but not put on the stack right away. It will wait until all state checks are done. This happens since a player can not get priority while a state check is happening. Once all states are checked a player would get priority and the triggered ability would go to the stack as per 603.3. But garruk was moved to graveyard by state checks and his ability will disappear from the "waiting" stack that is unique to triggered abilities
Quote from: bravado883 on June 14, 2013, 02:57:37 PM
Can you cite the rules for this "pre-stack"? According to Gatherer, Garruk's ability is a "state-based trigger." So, wouldn't the state be checked, the trigger go on the stack and Garruk be placed in a graveyard both as state-based actions?
State based triggers go onto the stack, before the transformation trigger resolves, Garruk will have gone to the grave as a state based action. Tis all.
Quote from: bravado883 on June 14, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
@Scars: I think that what you said is what I am saying...I agree that he won't transform, but that the transformation ability will still go on the stack as a state-based action correct? It will resolve as well, only with no effect since the permanent that generated the ability is no longer on the battlefield. The only thing I'm having trouble with (not saying that it's wrong, I've just not heard about it and would like to understand the game more fully) is the idea that the trigger is never put on the stack in the first place.
That's what I want clarification on: are we saying that NO triggers go on the stack as a result of killing an unflipped {Garruk Relentless}?
I'm pretty sure a useless trigger makes it on to the stack since sba's resolve simultaneously.
603.3. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=603.3.): Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
The first couple lines there, a play would get priority after state based, in which garruk will get moved to graveyard and his ability just can't do it's thing anymore although u are right after thinking about it I think his ability will hit the stack. The waiting stack does exist though, just be aware of it. Although in a lot of cases it doesn't do anything
It seems Garruk relentless would be good in a deck that used the graveyard as a resource. Kill one of your own creature with a death trigger or something like that, then transform him
Yep! Check out the ulti on {Garruk, the veil cursed}
Ya if you read the second part I realized my mistake, it would hit stack just wouldn't do squat