If I have {Séance} out and {Deadeye Navigator} out and I bounce one of the Seance tokens would I be able to keep the token
Quote from: Mozilla butcher on May 19, 2013, 04:15:24 PM
If I have {Séance} out and {Deadeye Navigator} out and I bounce one of the Seance tokens would I be able to keep the token
I'm afraid not. A token may only exist on the battlefield. If it leaves the field for any reason, it ceases to exist.
704.5d: If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
Also, this ruling can be applied:
110.5g: A token that has left the battlefield can't move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
I had thought that I had found a way to keep them but oh well
You may populate it though.
State based effect happen when a player "would get" priority. No player gets priority during the resolution of the aforementioned effect and the token is no longer in an inappropriate zone at the first instance where a player would get priority. Given this I would argue that the token would still exist and be in play following the complete resolution of this effect.
It isn't a state based check. It is a replacement effect. If a token would go anywhere besides the battlefield, instead it ceases to exist
Sorry to dispute it but I must insist it is a state based effect and not a replacement effect. If it were a replacement effect tokens wouldn't hit the graveyard thereby triggering dying effects and put into graveyard effects. I could be persuaded that due to it being put into the exile zone the state based effect could still make it disappear after returning to play. But it should re-enter
Quote from: Firemind on May 19, 2013, 11:29:29 PM
Sorry to dispute it but I must insist it is a state based effect and not a replacement effect. If it were a replacement effect tokens wouldn't hit the graveyard thereby triggering dying effects and put into graveyard effects. I could be persuaded that due to it being put into the exile zone the state based effect could still make it disappear after returning to play. But it should re-enter
Keyeto already provided the rule. If you have a rule that proves your opinion please post it.
Quote from: Firemind on May 19, 2013, 11:29:29 PM
Sorry to dispute it but I must insist it is a state based effect and not a replacement effect. If it were a replacement effect tokens wouldn't hit the graveyard thereby triggering dying effects and put into graveyard effects. I could be persuaded that due to it being put into the exile zone the state based effect could still make it disappear after returning to play. But it should re-enter
This is why I put the ruling on my post. Tokens can only exist on the battlefield, period. As soon as a token is not on the battlefield, it no longer exists. Whether or not it is a state based action or a replacement effect is irrelevant. The fact is, the token leaves the battlefield, and no longer exists once that happens.
I'm not disputing Mr K as a rule but pointing out that there is no gap where a player would get priority in the effect of this specific card. Any of the flicker effects that return at end of turn do follow his wording, it is just that this one does not delay before returning. Will look it up and post rules when I find the time. I love any flickering.
Quote from: Firemind on May 19, 2013, 11:38:07 PM
I'm not disputing Mr K as a rule but pointing out that there is no gap where a player would get priority in the effect of this specific card. Any of the flicker effects that return at end of turn do follow his wording, it is just that this one does not delay before returning. Will look it up and post rules when I find the time. I love any flickering.
Maybe this ruling will clear things up, and express what I'm trying to say with better clarity:
110.5g: A token that has left the battlefield can't move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
Thx that does clear it up.
Good job as usual Mr K
Quote from: Firemind on May 19, 2013, 11:59:08 PM
Thx that does clear it up.
Good job as usual Mr K
Thank you!
I added the second ruling to my original post, to make things nice and orderly.