When {Angel of Serenity} enters the battlefield, if I play an instant after {Angel of Serenity} resolves, say an {ultimate price}, does that resolve before the effect of {Angel of Serenity}?
Yes, but you cannot target the {Angel of Serenity} if you are adding to the stack.
Why can I not target the {angel of serenity}? Is it because the ability can not be interrupted?
You may target the angel of serenity if you wish, as long as it is resolved.
Quote from: MisterJH on May 10, 2013, 09:38:37 PM
You may target the angel of serenity if you wish, as long as it is resolved.
I understand being able to target the angel, but will the {ultimate price} resolve before the ability of the Angel.
I think the best question would be, does and ETB ability happen simultaneously when the creature with the ability resolves?
No, ETB effects are placed on the stack. Yes ultimate price would resolve before the angel's ETB effect, assuming you cast ultimate price after the angel resolves, before the ETB effect resolves.
I could be wrong but I don't think you can target a creature until its actually on the battlefield, until its on the battlefield it's still a spell. It could be countered, but I don't think it can be "destroyed". But someone please correct me if I'm way off.
Quote from: Wingnut on May 10, 2013, 10:33:08 PM
I could be wrong but I don't think you can target a creature until its actually on the battlefield, until its on the battlefield it's still a spell. It could be countered, but I don't think it can be "destroyed". But someone please correct me if I'm way off.
Youre right, but thats not quite what was being asked. Youve got the right idea though.
My question was for "after" she resolved, Before the ETB trigger. I know I have to wait to {ultimate price} until after resolution but I wanted to stop the effect.
Quote from: MisterJH on May 10, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on May 10, 2013, 10:33:08 PM
I could be wrong but I don't think you can target a creature until its actually on the battlefield, until its on the battlefield it's still a spell. It could be countered, but I don't think it can be "destroyed". But someone please correct me if I'm way off.
Youre right, but thats not quite what was being asked. Youve got the right idea though.
Sorry, that's my bad not being clear enough, I actually did pick up on it, basically meant that the only way that would take out the angel is after it had touched the battlefield, triggering the ETB effect before the spell could even target it, therefore it would be on the stack. That's all, at least I had the right idea.
Quote from: Jlamb5 on May 10, 2013, 10:36:14 PM
My question was for "after" she resolved, Before the ETB trigger. I know I have to wait to {ultimate price} until after resolution but I wanted to stop the effect.
Just to make sure everything is clear, you are unable to do this. The conditions for the trigger are her entering the battlefield. Once she hits the field, the condition is met, and the trigger is put on the stack. You can actually pull some ETB/LTB shenanigans where the cards stay exiled if you wish, but that's not quite the question at hand here ;)
If you want to stop her trigger, you'll need to {Stifle} it, or a similar effect.
Quote from: Keyeto on May 11, 2013, 01:33:22 AM
Quote from: Jlamb5 on May 10, 2013, 10:36:14 PM
My question was for "after" she resolved, Before the ETB trigger. I know I have to wait to {ultimate price} until after resolution but I wanted to stop the effect.
Just to make sure everything is clear, you are unable to do this. The conditions for the trigger are her entering the battlefield. Once she hits the field, the condition is met, and the trigger is put on the stack. You can actually pull some ETB/LTB shenanigans where the cards stay exiled if you wish, but that's not quite the question at hand here ;)
If you want to stop her trigger, you'll need to {Stifle} it, or a similar effect.
I'm really trying to fully understand all the technicalities for gameplay, especially the stack, so bare with me while I try to understand.
You're saying that the trigger is put on the stack once she ETB. My understanding would lead me to believe that if its on the stack, and I then {ultimate price} her before the trigger resolves, the trigger would then fizzle.
No it doesn't fizzle due to this rule:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Quote from: Kagain123 on May 11, 2013, 03:02:37 AM
No it doesn't fizzle due to this rule:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Thanks. That's what I was trying to get to.
You cannot stop an ability or trigger unless it is countered, but you can make the target of an ability invalid, causing it to fizzle. That's what I always stick to.
I think. Haha.
Follow up question: I want to make sure I'm following the stack correctly.
{Angel of Serenity} ETB and puts "exile 3 target permanents" on the stack. {Ultimate Price} is cast targeting the angel. Ultimate price resolves killing the angel and the angels LTB affect triggers putting "return cards exiled by angel" on the stack. Return resolves with no legal targets. Three target permanents are then exiled and never get sent to their controllers hand.
Quote from: Pleeb on May 11, 2013, 08:38:47 AM
Follow up question: I want to make sure I'm following the stack correctly.
{Angel of Serenity} ETB and puts "exile 3 target permanents" on the stack. {Ultimate Price} is cast targeting the angel. Ultimate price resolves killing the angel and the angels LTB affect triggers putting "return cards exiled by angel" on the stack. Return resolves with no legal targets. Three target permanents are then exiled and never get sent to their controllers hand.
Yep! This is what I had mentioned earlier. It's a pretty nasty combo. Assuming you're facing the angel, you'll want to wait until her ETB trigger resolves before killing her.
I encountered this on MTGO. What happens is the player casting angel gets to choose the 3 creatures to be exiled so they are in limbo but the ETB hasn't resolved yet so you cast ultimate price and kill the angel. By doing this that occurs first so the 3 creatures chosen to be exiled stay exiled since they never officially were put under the angel. Does that make sense?
Yea I believe this was discussed before and those cards will be exiled "forever".
It is like the angel is the key and when the angel is dead, the key is gone and is unable to "unlock" those exiled back to play. Hehe a good way to break the restoration angel trick.
It would happen like this:
1- angel is cast
2- angel resolves
3- ETB effect is put on the stack, with targets already chosen
4- {ultimate price} or any other instant speed destroy effect is cast/put on stack
5- destroy resolves
6- LTB effect is put on stack
7- LTB resolves. No cards were exiled, so no cards go to hand
8- ETB resolves on the targets already specified on step 3. Since the ability includes "you may", the Angel owner chooses wether he wants to exile them or bot (this decision is the same for all targets, he can't choose to cancel it on one target and keep it on another)
Works in MTGO all of the time. As explained above. Good work everyone.
Quote from: Mentonin on May 11, 2013, 11:36:03 AM
It would happen like this:
1- angel is cast
2- angel resolves
3- ETB effect is put on the stack, with targets already chosen
4- {ultimate price} or any other instant speed destroy effect is cast/put on stack
5- destroy resolves
6- LTB effect is put on stack
7- LTB resolves. No cards were exiled, so no cards go to hand
8- ETB resolves on the targets already specified on step 3. Since the ability includes "you may", the Angel owner chooses wether he wants to exile them or bot (this decision is the same for all targets, he can't choose to cancel it on one target and keep it on another)
For step 8, once the targets are chosen for the trigger, it's also been declared that the targets will be exiled hasn't it? I don't see how you can later change whether they get exiled or not because the effect is already on the stack.
I agree with falcon
Mentonin is correct. It's actually in the rules for the card on Gatherer:
1/24/2013 You choose the targets as part of putting the enters-the-battlefield trigger on the stack. Because that ability includes "you may," you choose whether to exile the targets when the ability resolves.
It doesn't give you that option on MTGO to not exile them
That is because MTGO is a set of predefined programs which dictate the rules, and not always is a perfect reflection of rules nuances.
So every time that happens in a match on MTGO you can file for reimbursement haha
So for such cases of "may", when the angel is cast the caster has to declare the 3 targets, but only upon resolution decides whether to exile them, since it is a "may"?
Ok everyone good job clearing up her ability and interacting with a kill spell. I need to jump in on an important point that was not brought up though: priority.
Assuming it is your opponent's turn (since serenity does not have flash) they retain priority when the stack is empty, the same is true for you on your turns. This means when a creature enters the battlefield without triggering anything such as an ETB or {ivy lane denizen} then you cant actually cast your kill spell until your opponent casts, activates, or triggers something and/or changes phases. So when the angel enters before the ETB is actually placed on the stack there is a state base check but you can not kill the angel at this time. State base finds that an ETB is waiting and places that on the stack at which point if the active player (your opponent in this case) has nothing to add before that resolves then you can responds by killing it.
Understanding priority should be learned when you learn the stack, but many players overlook this important function of magic that clears up a lot of misunderstandings.