Let me first clarify that this debate does not condone breaking imtg law, or any law for that matter, based on the "not knowing" arguement. It is your job to know imtg law simply by posting. On to my question is lying still lying if you honestly don't know and are just wrong? An example; You see Timmy put a five in his wallet for fnm. Jon knows he had a dollar previously in his wallet and asks you how much money Timmy has in his wallet. You answer with confidence 5 dollars, and Jon calls you a liar. Does Jon have that right?
Quote from: Vyse on May 10, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Let me first clarify that this debate does not condone breaking imtg law, or any law for that matter, based on the "not knowing" arguement. It is your job to know imtg law simply by posting. On to my question is lying still lying if you honestly don't know and are just wrong? An example; You see Timmy put a five in his wallet for fnm. Jon knows he had a dollar previously in his wallet and asks you how much money Timmy has in his wallet. You answer with confidence 5 dollars, and Jon calls you a liar. Does Jon have that right?
Not lieing at all just incorrect answer. I tend to blur that line playing 1v1 at home with my closest friend, I know his decks well enough that after a few plays I can always tell what's in his hand and ill call him out on it for example from what he knows I have no idea what's in his had and all go to cast a spell and before he even taps the mana ill be like "and there's the dissipate" and he'll flip out "you saw my hand you know what I'm holding"
Quote from: Vyse on May 10, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Let me first clarify that this debate does not condone breaking imtg law, or any law for that matter, based on the "not knowing" arguement. It is your job to know imtg law simply by posting. On to my question is lying still lying if you honestly don't know and are just wrong? An example; You see Timmy put a five in his wallet for fnm. Jon knows he had a dollar previously in his wallet and asks you how much money Timmy has in his wallet. You answer with confidence 5 dollars, and Jon calls you a liar. Does Jon have that right?
You can always call a lie on anything. That claim needs to be checked and if your call is found to be false (your call was a lie) then the case is closed and the acussed person can claim to be a victim of false accusation and open a separate case.
In your example the lie was called incorrectly and moreso in a bad form: it is more polite to call a lie on the lie not liar on the person. While technically telling a lie makes person a liar, no need to be Richard about it ;)
How I would judge the false accusation case depends on the evidence provided by false accuser, and the punishment called for by the victim. Accuser is automatically guilty because that was proven in the previous case, we just need to make sure the punishment is logical. If Jon apologises immediately and explains why he called the lie, I would close the case with no additional punishment. But if he escalates and is a Richard about it, it depends ;)
Quote from: Piotr on May 11, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: Vyse on May 10, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Let me first clarify that this debate does not condone breaking imtg law, or any law for that matter, based on the "not knowing" arguement. It is your job to know imtg law simply by posting. On to my question is lying still lying if you honestly don't know and are just wrong? An example; You see Timmy put a five in his wallet for fnm. Jon knows he had a dollar previously in his wallet and asks you how much money Timmy has in his wallet. You answer with confidence 5 dollars, and Jon calls you a liar. Does Jon have that right?
You can always call a lie on anything. That claim needs to be checked and if your call is found to be false (your call was a lie) then the case is closed and the acussed person can claim to be a victim of false accusation and open a separate case.
In your example the lie was called incorrectly and moreso in a bad form: it is more polite to call a lie on the lie not liar on the person. While technically telling a lie makes person a liar, no need to be Richard about it ;)
How I would judge the false accusation case depends on the evidence provided by false accuser, and the punishment called for by the victim. Accuser is automatically guilty because that was proven in the previous case, we just need to make sure the punishment is logical. If Jon apologises immediately and explains why he called the lie, I would close the case with no additional punishment. But if he escalates and is a Richard about it, it depends ;)
The example wasn't fantastic, but got the point across. I was specifically interested in your response Piotr so thank you for the insight your answer provides.
Quote from: KangaRod on May 11, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
I don't think Piotr understand the social implications of calling someone a liar.
Interesting theory which leads me to a theory that you cannot comprehend written statements fully. I come to this theory based on the fact that 2 posts above I've said 'it is more polite to call a lie on the lie not liar on the person'.
Lie is shorter to write than false, but I will consider your suggestion, thanks ;)
Quote from: KangaRod on May 11, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
The key definition diffierence between lie and falsehood is that telling a lie is a falsehood with the deliberate intention of intending to deceive someone, calling someone's character into question much more aggressively and making it impossible to not take personally.
I call a lie when I'm ready to bring the power of iMtG Law into a discussion. The law was designed and intended to be a practical tool used to judge situations with 2 or more sides which are in conflict. They are already in conflict when a lie is called, so whatever. Be a man about it, if someone tells falsehood and you are offended by the false statement, call a bloody lie and get on with it.
A lie is, by definition "an intentionally false statement". This is where the confusion lies. "Intent". To knowingly convey a falsehood.
If my mother told me my birthday was in August and I was actually born in September, (for some weird reason), telling others when my birthday is (or rather, when i believe it is) isn't lying. My mother lied. And that makes her a liar. But saying something false, believing it to be true, is NOT a lie. It is just simply false.
If I take an exam, and answer every question wrong, it doesn't make me a liar. It just makes me wrong. You could even call me a failure. But a liar? Absolutely not. Could we please get a better grasp on the English language? This is supposed to be a forum filled with experts on a game utterly dependant upon a thorough understanding of the written word...
MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?! THE WORD LIE IS TOO OFFENSIVE? God forbid we have more PC. Words are just words people.
"In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, how can you ever mean what you say?"
~somebody wiser and more famous than me
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on May 11, 2013, 12:57:31 PM
A lie is, by definition "an intentionally false statement". This is where the confusion lies. "Intent". To knowingly convey a falsehood.
If my mother told me my birthday was in August and I was actually born in September, (for some weird reason), telling others when my birthday is (or rather, when i believe it is) isn't lying. My mother lied. And that makes her a liar. But saying something false, believing it to be true, is NOT a lie. It is just simply false.
If I take an exam, and answer every question wrong, it doesn't make me a liar. It just makes me wrong. You could even call me a failure. But a liar? Absolutely not. Could we please get a better grasp on the English language? This is supposed to be a forum filled with experts on a game utterly dependant upon a thorough understanding of the written word...
She lied and you repeated her lie. KangaRod repeated someone's lie. No need to get too emotional about it. You may be guilty of telling a lie, but logically your punishment will be null. Your mum would be banned, so would be Lenin ;)
Quote from: MisterJH on May 11, 2013, 02:38:48 PM
MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?! THE WORD LIE IS TOO OFFENSIVE? God forbid we have more PC. Words are just words people.
No need to shout, but I couldn't agree more. http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=20308.0 ;)
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on May 11, 2013, 03:05:33 PM
"In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, how can you ever mean what you say?"
~somebody wiser and more famous than me
""In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, how can you ever mean what you say?"
~somebody wiser and more famous than me"
~~Somebody who knows me relevant quotes than I.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on May 11, 2013, 12:57:31 PM
A lie is, by definition "an intentionally false statement". This is where the confusion lies. "Intent". To knowingly convey a falsehood.
If my mother told me my birthday was in August and I was actually born in September, (for some weird reason), telling others when my birthday is (or rather, when i believe it is) isn't lying. My mother lied. And that makes her a liar. But saying something false, believing it to be true, is NOT a lie. It is just simply false.
If I take an exam, and answer every question wrong, it doesn't make me a liar. It just makes me wrong. You could even call me a failure. But a liar? Absolutely not. Could we please get a better grasp on the English language? This is supposed to be a forum filled with experts on a game utterly dependant upon a thorough understanding of the written word...
You have just proven that telling a lie doesn't necessarily make lie teller a liar. Well done sir.
Lmfao. Not exactly what I was going for but I'll take it...