So I was playing at m LGS and joined some folks or EDH. Two of them used proxies, but like absurd proxies from PRE revised.
I know it's a casual format, but it seems less fun when someone just prints a card from their printer. I felt like I might as well go print some stupid deck that has some crazy infinite combo....but I don't feel right about playing cards I don't actually have as it feels kind of cheap...
Thoughts?
I don't think that's right. I usually allow my friends a proxy or two if they're trying to fine tune a deck, and want to know if its worth spending the money on specific cards. But when you go overboard (like it sounds these guys did) then it's just flat out cheating. Anyone could easily make an unfairly powerul proxy deck, but come on, there's nothing fun about that.
Yeah, some guy had like 5 commander decks, all with proxy original duals and expensive cards like that. It was pretty annoying.
I use them for playtesting
Quote from: Keyeto on May 05, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
I don't think that's right. I usually allow my friends a proxy or two if they're trying to fine tune a deck, and want to know if its worth spending the money on specific cards. But when you go overboard (like it sounds these guys did) then it's just flat out cheating. Anyone could easily make an unfairly powerul proxy deck, but come on, there's nothing fun about that.
Or if everyone agrees to use proxies, then everyone can have an amazingly powerful deck. But this guy used them as actual decks, so it was pretty stupid playing against him.
I mean play test at home
Not a franklin game store.
A part of magic of which I enjoyed was not going crazy and buying singles. Buy packs; use your card pool. Trade to expand.
It absolutely was boring when people pull out cards they cannot actually play if it were a tournament.
Player 1 does crazy spell combo
Player 2: "Oh yeah. Well I have a force of will"
(shows piece of paper in sleeve that says "force of will") "pay life and counter"
Player 1: that's a piece of paper in a sleeve...it's not even cut in the shape of a card, it's a star.
Player 2: Proxy brahh
My play group allows proxies only if you are actively looking for the real card. I don't understand why people play with a proxy deck. It's unfair to those who play this game right and actually work hard in finding the cards for their deck.
We allow proxies only if you own the card. This helps just because we each have 5 plus EDH decks and we don't want to constantly swap out high value cards.
I dont want to see proxies in a commander deck the only thing im okay with them proxieing is the general if it isnt a absurbly powerful one
I'm not against proxies. Commander is a casual format after all, lots of the really good cards are quite expensive, some people rightfully so cannot justify spending the money on them. Proxing dual lands doesn't bother me, it doesn't give you a sizable advantage.
Most of the Power 9 are banned anyway, except {Time Twister}, which is fairly symmetrical for everyone.
I personally own all my cards, because I enjoy playing with powerful cards and they're an investment. I think denying people use of powerful cards because of money limitations stifles my competition. I'm all for it.
Edit: {Force of Will} is quite expensive, and because it is used in Legacy it becomes prohibitive for Commander players. {Jace, the Mind Sculptor} is another. At one point I owned 4, traded 2 for some revised lands. I've seen people proxy them, but I don't get mad because its essentially worthless - and they get to play on the same level as I can - which is great for competition.
Additionally: I would consider using proxies if I was to lend my deck to someone I don't know, or a major tournament. Cards get stolen often at these events, and I could risk losing up to several thousand dollars if I was raided. I would be willing to show a judge the real copies, and explain that I'm using proxies for protection.
Well time to use the gold bordered {Burning Wish} I have and use {Riftsweeper} {Pull from Eternity} to bounce it back several times. I'll have MTG open as my "library" then I can write the card on some paper and insert it into a sleeve and voila!
I'm going to put an ante card in also.
Mainly i use proxies for when the original is in a competitive deck and i dont want to pull them out, but i at least let people know im using them first, and i pull out the deck woth the card of they do have a problem
I'm on the fence for proxies, myself. On the one hand, I understand that using proxies allows you to complete and start playing with your deck sooner. If you play with friends who all have more money or access to better cards than you, proxies can help you bridge the gap. But on the other hand, if your friends are on similar ground as you, using proxies gives you a bit of an unfair edge. It can be really obnoxious.
My friend uses proxies. He does it because his friends all are super competitive, play very spike-style even in EDH, and have a much greater collection than he does. So he proxies to keep up. But then when he plays withy friends and me, he still has his proxied spike decks, and the level if power those proxies put him at above our casual decks is really annoying - it feels more like we're playing Archenemy, because we have to gang up on him. He has less fun because he's getting ganged up on, and we have less fun because his decks are absurd. It's just a lose-lose.
The only time my friends and I will use proxies are if a card is quite costly and we don't want it to get ruined
I only use proxies as a playtest sub until i can afford the real deal. That's the only fair way to use them imo. Without buying, proxies let you get a good feel for how to play a deck before spending 300$ on something you may not like.
I proxy when I playtest, but not normally more than 2 cards if I'm working on a combo, if it works I get the cards. If it doesn't, I go back to the drawing board, at my LGS there are a number of standard players that use proxy decks, like the entire deck other than basic lands and it gets frustrating, mostly because they are net deckers, and one had the audacity to bring in a completed deck (had all the cards) but printed the deck tech to read while playing because they couldn't figure out the card interaction....
Wow... Just .... Wow...
I don't have a problem with proxies in certain situations.... For example, if like a post above stated, they have multiple decks and don't want to keep switching the cards out, but they actually own the card they proxy.
When someone just proxies entire decks, especially net decked material they don't deserve a seat at the table... And if for some reason they do sneak past you, show them why you should know your deck inside and out, and build what you intend to pilot... Destroy them.
Quote from: Arzair on May 10, 2013, 12:53:07 AM
Wow... Just .... Wow...
I don't have a problem with proxies in certain situations.... For example, if like a post above stated, they have multiple decks and don't want to keep switching the cards out, but they actually own the card they proxy.
When someone just proxies entire decks, especially net decked material they don't deserve a seat at the table... And if for some reason they do sneak past you, show them why you should know your deck inside and out, and build what you intend to pilot... Destroy them.
Which I oblige every time. {Doubling Season} + {Nissa Revane} + {Contagion Engine} + 27 elves in my deck.... Win
Edited forgot the engine, typing slower than my mind thinks. ~first world problems~
I don't usually use proxies much myself, but I don't really mind if someone else does. As far as just making ridiculously powerful, broken decks-those aren't fun to play against anyway, proxies or none. I don't think that advantage in a casual format should simply go to who has more money.
Quote from: Juggleboy360 on May 11, 2013, 04:51:07 AM
I don't usually use proxies much myself, but I don't really mind if someone else does. As far as just making ridiculously powerful, broken decks-those aren't fun to play against anyway, proxies or none. I don't think that advantage in a casual format should simply go to who has more money.
I second this.
I just proxy cards I own if they are in another deck and I don't want to keep swapping them. Or play testing obviously.
I'm my deck I EDH deck I have one proxy, {Darkest Hour} and its only cos my does not work without it, and I can't find someone to trade with for it in my area, and my mates font mind as they said they would Di the same for my EDH drvk
I don't really like proxies in EDH, I mean how important is it for your mana base to have a {Tropical Island}? I'm very understanding if people are play testing a deck they are thinking of building or actively looking for certain cards.
Quote from: Stoneco1d869 on May 06, 2013, 12:37:25 AM
We allow proxies only if you own the card. This helps just because we each have 5 plus EDH decks and we don't want to constantly swap out high value cards.
Same. I am so torn on this because I TRY to go by the "it's just cardboard at the end of the day" thing. But when people are proxying duals they don't even own, I'd probably make a snarky comment or two at them. Legacy on the other hand, I do not mind proxies at all. I, in fact, almost find them necessary to figure out if you want to invest real money into a certain deck. Dual lands though, come on!
Yeah when every card they play is a $40 plus proxy and its even worse when it's a piece of paper that says "steam vents" in a sleeve.
Shall I just proxy black lotus and all the p9 with it? Oh let's not forget a JtMS also. Hey Burning wish; grab my spare tarmygoyf or my spare black lotus. 😑
What's the point of me even attempting to make a deck with my own card pool if everyone is going to use cards they don't have!
Quote from: Teysa karlov on May 17, 2013, 11:53:45 PM
I'm my deck I EDH deck I have one proxy, {Darkest Hour} and its only cos my does not work without it, and I can't find someone to trade with for it in my area, and my mates font mind as they said they would Di the same for my EDH drvk
If your deck doesn't work because you don't have just one card, I would rethink your entire play strategy...never,bid that you are proxing at most a one dollar card...
Quote from: Muggywuggy on May 19, 2013, 05:27:06 PM
Yeah when every card they play is a $40 plus proxy and its even worse when it's a piece of paper that says "steam vents" in a sleeve.
Shall I just proxy black lotus and all the p9 with it? Oh let's not forget a JtMS also. Hey Burning wish; grab my spare tarmygoyf or my spare black lotus. 😑
What's the point of me even attempting to make a deck with my own card pool if everyone is going to use cards they don't have!
Again, the cards you are mentioning are either broken/oppressive, or illegal in commander. The problem isn't that they're using proxies, it's what they're proxying, IMO. There's also a difference between all proxies and a few.
Edit: burning wish doesn't grab either of those cards, anyhow, lol.
Quote from: Arzair on May 19, 2013, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Teysa karlov on May 17, 2013, 11:53:45 PM
I'm my deck I EDH deck I have one proxy, {Darkest Hour} and its only cos my does not work without it, and I can't find someone to trade with for it in my area, and my mates font mind as they said they would Di the same for my EDH drvk
If your deck doesn't work because you don't have just one card, I would rethink your entire play strategy...never,bid that you are proxing at most a one dollar card...
the 1 card I poxie should arriving at mine on Friday,
I don't see a problem in proxies for things on the reserve list. They're stupid money for absolutely no reason at all.
Magic Online shows us that a freely printed {Moat} is not worth $299.99. It is worth precisely $4.05. Reserve list cards can be printed with impunity online. {Moat} was printed in Masters Edition 1 (2007), so even adjusted for inflation it is, price wise, where that card should be.
So lets take duals as an example, {Tundra} (I own 5 in paper) cost insane amounts of money because of the reserve list. Online? $24.45 a piece, what that card would be worth in a paper reprint (which is what Shocks lost in value via reprint).
{Jace, the Mind Sculptor} is too costly considering how "great" he actually is in EDH terms. I'd have no problem with someone proxying because that card is not with $120 IMO - especially not in an EDH deck (I happen to run one myself, it does not win games).
My personal EDH deck is worth WAY too much money for what it does. I have real copies of {Moat}, {Underground Sea}, {Scrubland}, {Tundra}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Mana Drain}, {Vindicate}, {Cryptic Command}, {Force of Will} and {Grim Tutor} in my Dromar deck. I could never begrudge anyone for proxying those cards - they range from a "fortune" to "I have them from playing so long" to me.
I may proxy for vindicate, till I get, a judge promo one!!!
Proxy cards in a casual format should not be that big of a deal. As someone who makes proxy cards and altered art cards I can understand why players who spend the $ get mad about expensive proxy cards. But who wants to spend 100's of dollars on a casual format??
Atleast in legacy and standard you have sanctioned events so the money invested can net a return in value.
In casual format, you're right. People could play with a deck of UNO cards for all I care. It's kitchen table ante and sanctioned events where these fools come in with half a deck of proxies and that really gets under my skin. I don't even go to small town events anymore cause there's never a judge there and owner is their buddy or something. City events only. If its a game for fun, who cares, but if something is at stake, leave your proxies in the recycle bin where you found them lol.
End rant...
What about te gold border world tour cards?? They are not tournament legal but would u still throw a fit if they were playing those instead of proxies?
In casual play, I don't mind. But again, if there are things at stake, no freaking way. That's what things like cockatrice is for. "I'll just pretend like I have all the rarest, most expensive cards ever made" no way.
Magic has been an investment for me and I've spent alot of time and money trying to get the cards I need/want. It's not fair to the people who have dished out the cash if just anyone can scribble on a piece of paper and write mox emerald on it.
I'm ok with proxies as long as I feel the card is attainable... So if they show up with moat I call BS on that
I understand EDH is a casual format but when you proxy cards so your ok deck becomes a monster then I have a problem, and so do the people I play with. Rule of thumb if you want to proxy and play a deck just to dominate and demoralize your opponent then you've missed the whole point of the format.
I have used proxies, but they were for play testing. If they worked in the deck then I spent the money and bought a card if not then trash can file cabinet here it comes. He'll I even proxied a .12 cent card to test because that particular deck was the only one I wanted that card in.
It all boils down to the people you play with. If your regular group is fine with it then go for it, but when you play someone new TELL THEM. If someone walks into Nerdy Stuff and tells me they have a deck with proxies in it and they explain why then I will probably play them. If I get ambushed by a proxy deck I would probably scoop and tell them to e'F off. Just sayin.
Quote from: Erflowers on May 24, 2013, 03:10:48 AM
I understand EDH is a casual format but when you proxy cards so your ok deck becomes a monster then I have a problem, and so do the people I play with. Rule of thumb if you want to proxy and play a deck just to dominate and demoralize your opponent then you've missed the whole point of the format.
Very good points, and probably a good set of rules to go by. I think when you go super spike and make a monster deck you are playing a different game than i likeanyhow, and I wouldn't want to play you, proxies or not.