I want to know what would be the best commander for a scg tournament who would be the best? also I need a very competitive 2 man also
{Zur the Enchanter} all day.
But how does he fair against {Kaalia of the Vast}?
A well built Zur deck will stomp Kaalia any day of the week.
Kaalia decks don't have access to counterspells. You're free to go off any time really.
Quote from: Gorzo on April 30, 2013, 03:03:31 PM
A well built Zur deck will stomp Kaalia any day of the week.
Sickening, but very true. Zur is hands down the strongest commander. He's just way too easy to abuse.
Awesome! Thanks for the help ill be sure to buil some zur
I'm sort of against Spiking it up for EDH. I'm guilty of doing it myself, because I enjoy playing powerful cards and winning, but I prefer the journey more then the early finish.
I don't like competitive edh, but the best commanders:
{Jhoira of the Ghitu}
{Zur the Enchanter}
{Kaalia of the Vast}
Can we expect a ban hammer on Zur as more enchantments get printed?
Quote from: Kaleo42 on April 30, 2013, 07:31:41 PM
Can we expect a ban hammer on Zur as more enchantments get printed?
I hope so. I mean, as much as people will argue that he "can be fair" or "he's beatable" the fact is, build your Zur deck right (which is really easy) and he can take out more than one player easily. The fact is, he's way overpowered, and too easy to abuse. When your overpowering Kaalia in stabilizing your field, you're really cheap.
Mini rant complete.
BANHAMMERRRR
My issue with Zur is that he has access to the tools to beat EVERY OTHER DECK. I have yet to see a deck that will beat a Zur deck regardless of what they play. The best bet I have seen is {Omnath, the Locus of Mana} in a fast rush, but even that is just hoping they dont {Path to exile} or some other FU to the commander damage.
I doubt Zur, Kaalia or any 3+ color commander will get banned anytime soon. I do believe he can be easily abused, but so can many others.
Oh and no love for {Animar}? I have seen him abused easily, and he can be abused many different ways.
Animar is like a multicolor Omnath. I really like him, but I feel he is strong without being broken. Reduced cost is not broken, eliminating cost completely is broken.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 01, 2013, 01:48:36 AM
Animar is like a multicolor Omnath. I really like him, but I feel he is strong without being broken. Reduced cost is not broken, eliminating cost completely is broken.
Animar can be stupid good. I've got eldrazi deck with him as the legend. When drop a bunch of mana dorks the turn after you drop animar it's not very fun for your opponent. Especially when turn after you start dropping eldrazi. This deck makes me want Emrakal unbanned.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 01, 2013, 01:48:36 AM
Animar is like a multicolor Omnath. I really like him, but I feel he is strong without being broken. Reduced cost is not broken, eliminating cost completely is broken.
I agree 100%. I fight against Animar more than any other commander (other than Ghave, possibly) and its not too hard to ruin the strategy. If he gets going, it's awesome, but I can't even count how many times {Capsize} has left him with a weak field, and a bunch of high cost cards that just sit in the hand for a while.
Don't get me wrong, he can be a powerhouse. His strategy is very "obvious" and because of that, is relatively easy to adapt to. Still love him as a commander though!
Maybe a mono blue counter deck with {Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir} as commander?
Quote from: Keyeto on May 01, 2013, 03:07:47 AM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 01, 2013, 01:48:36 AM
Animar is like a multicolor Omnath. I really like him, but I feel he is strong without being broken. Reduced cost is not broken, eliminating cost completely is broken.
I agree 100%. I fight against Animar more than any other commander (other than Ghave, possibly) and its not too hard to ruin the strategy. If he gets going, it's awesome, but I can't even count how many times {Capsize} has left him with a weak field, and a bunch of high cost cards that just sit in the hand for a while.
Don't get me wrong, he can be a powerhouse. His strategy is very "obvious" and because of that, is relatively easy to adapt to. Still love him as a commander though!
I have not played a broken version of {Zur} nor do I play one so I guess it's hard for me to see how he is that different than the other powerful commanders. I guess I feel they all have answers, even {Zur}.
Animar with bounce effects and ETB like {peregrine drake} {palichron} leave for countless infinite combos plus the casting of free creatures and finishers such as {omniscience}. Now yes if you can remove him, great, but the same could be said for {Zur}.
For example search "Animar Creature Smash" and you will see what I mean.
True, but to be fair, any deck with blue in it can abuse Palinchron's infinite mana combos, not just Animar. An the thig about Zur is, he protects himself immediately, so there's no bouncing him. {Diplomatic Immunity} or {Vanishing} followed by {Solitary Confinement}, {Necropotence}, {Greater Auramancy}, {Mana Vortex}, the list goes on. Animar is good, but he can't lock everyone out of the game within two turns of hitting the field, and that's assuming you don't cast any spells before Zur. He's just a monster. Throw a bunch of counterspells in the mix, and bam. You have a really angry playgroup.
Like I said, don't get me wrong, as Animar is a great general (and one of my favorites) but Zur is just ridiculously easy to abuse.
I feel as though you are all a bit too up on {Zur the enchanter}'s jock....
Once you really get serious about EDH, you come to the realization that no general is really too threatening. My EDH deck runs so many {wrath of god} type cards and permanent general removal like {spin into myth}, {Zur} hardly ever strikes fear into my eyes.
He still has to hit the field, last a turn, swing and hope no spell or creature can kill him. You are correct in that a few correct pieces and the game is an absolute lock down, but as you and others have stated, you expect that from Zur.
I guess I think it depends on the game dynamic. 1v1 he can beast, but if a playgroup(3+) allows him to win by beating everyone, than they were doing something wrong. I see him somewhat like Kaalia in that you always have to respect him and assume it has the potential to be the most powerful deck on the field. If you do that, than he is likely targeted early and often slowing him down tremendously.
Quote from: Wsuryanjeska on May 01, 2013, 06:00:59 AM
I feel as though you are all a bit too up on {Zur the enchanter}'s jock....
Once you really get serious about EDH, you come to the realization that no general is really too threatening. My EDH deck runs so many {wrath of god} type cards and permanent general removal like {spin into myth}, {Zur} hardly ever strikes fear into my eyes.
This is what I was getting at. EDH has so many options and answers for everything.
Of course, he's not invincible. Info believe he is the most threatening general out there. The fact is, within a few turns, a player can easily have Zur out with {Vanishing} on him. At that point, he's literally untouchable. Even if someone manages to wrath or find spot removal in their 100 card deck, it doesn't matter, he'll just phase out. And that's another point. The opposing players have to rely on drawing an answer (which quite possibly could get countered), Zur doesn't. He has the ability to tutor any answer to any deck.
I certainly won't go as far as to say he's unbeatable, but I think out of all the generals, he's certainly the easiest to abuse/lock others out if the game.
Quote from: Keyeto on May 01, 2013, 06:18:44 AM
Of course, he's not invincible. Info believe he is the most threatening general out there. The fact is, within a few turns, a player can easily have Zur out with {Vanishing} on him. At that point, he's literally untouchable. Even if someone manages to wrath or find spot removal in their 100 card deck, it doesn't matter, he'll just phase out. And that's another point. The opposing players have to rely on drawing an answer (which quite possibly could get countered), Zur doesn't. He has the ability to tutor any answer to any deck.
I certainly won't go as far as to say he's unbeatable, but I think out of all the generals, he's certainly the easiest to abuse/lock others out if the game.
I do agree he is easy to abuse in that it takes no skill if you toss in {Erayo, Soratami Ascendant} and {Rule of Law}, but I still dislike mono colored decks more:)
Quote from: Stoneco1d869 on May 01, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Quote from: Keyeto on May 01, 2013, 06:18:44 AM
Of course, he's not invincible. Info believe he is the most threatening general out there. The fact is, within a few turns, a player can easily have Zur out with {Vanishing} on him. At that point, he's literally untouchable. Even if someone manages to wrath or find spot removal in their 100 card deck, it doesn't matter, he'll just phase out. And that's another point. The opposing players have to rely on drawing an answer (which quite possibly could get countered), Zur doesn't. He has the ability to tutor any answer to any deck.
I certainly won't go as far as to say he's unbeatable, but I think out of all the generals, he's certainly the easiest to abuse/lock others out if the game.
I do agree he is easy to abuse in that it takes no skill if you toss in {Erayo, Soratami Ascendant} and {Rule of Law}, but I still dislike mono colored decks more:)
Mono blue is a nightmare lol
My favorite moment ever playing, was accidentally reminding my opponent of his {Erayo, Soratami Ascendant} and {Arcane Laboratory} combo. Next turn, he busted it out, and I've hated mono blue ever since.
I agree, mono is rough and they rarely get mana screwed.
If they banhammered {trade secrets} because a few people abused it, why wont they ban Kaalia and zur? At the least they could make them no longer able to be commanders
Quote from: Kaleo42 on April 30, 2013, 07:31:41 PM
Can we expect a ban hammer on Zur as more enchantments get printed?
Will {Kaalia of the Vast} be banned with all these new demons angels and dragons being printed
I don't know if they should ban {Kaalia of the Vast}. She is just lame. She designs the deck for you, and in typical Wizards fashion they made her basically the best possibility of that color combination. It's boring. Slam EtB Angels, Demons and Dragons together, protect her with equipment. Rinse and repeat.
I'm sick of Wizards dictating what a format can play. Sure - {The Mimeoplasm} is great fun for the people playing it. But it specifically designed for the format, and nearly the best card in that combination.
Quote from: Dudecore on May 01, 2013, 09:28:21 AM
I don't know if they should ban {Kaalia of the Vast}. She is just lame. She designs the deck for you, and in typical Wizards fashion they made her basically the best possibility of that color combination. It's boring. Slam EtB Angels, Demons and Dragons together, protect her with equipment. Rinse and repeat.
I'm sick of Wizards dictating what a format can play. Sure - {The Mimeoplasm} is great fun for the people playing it. But it specifically designed for the format, and nearly the best card in that combination.
You could say the same about zur though too and he is bannable
{Zur the Enchanter} has the benefit of being Standard Legal at one time. But sure, ban him also. The outcry is big enough. Unban {Trade Secrets} too.
Quote from: Dudecore on May 01, 2013, 09:37:25 AM
{Zur the Enchanter} has the benefit of being Standard Legal at one time. But sure, ban him also. The outcry is big enough. Unban {Trade Secrets} too.
I dont want either banned lol but {Kaalia of the Vast} and {Zur the Enchanter} are cards that need built around to be any good
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 01, 2013, 10:25:16 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on May 01, 2013, 09:37:25 AM
{Zur the Enchanter} has the benefit of being Standard Legal at one time. But sure, ban him also. The outcry is big enough. Unban {Trade Secrets} too.
I dont want either banned lol but {Kaalia of the Vast} and {Zur the Enchanter} are cards that need built around to be any good
You can say that for many Commanders
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 01, 2013, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 01, 2013, 10:25:16 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on May 01, 2013, 09:37:25 AM
{Zur the Enchanter} has the benefit of being Standard Legal at one time. But sure, ban him also. The outcry is big enough. Unban {Trade Secrets} too.
I dont want either banned lol but {Kaalia of the Vast} and {Zur the Enchanter} are cards that need built around to be any good
You can say that for many Commanders
They are the strongest in this catagory
Quote from: Xaol on April 30, 2013, 04:10:54 PM
I don't like competitive edh, but the best commanders:
{Jhoira of the Ghitu}
{Zur the Enchanter}
{Kaalia of the Vast}
These guys for sure. I'd add {Riku of Two Reflections} to the list. His abilities are easily abused and can take over a game quickly. Also, {Grand Arbiter Augustin IV}, if built correctly, is very powerful control.
Quote from: Moneekahh on May 01, 2013, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 30, 2013, 04:10:54 PM
I don't like competitive edh, but the best commanders:
{Jhoira of the Ghitu}
{Zur the Enchanter}
{Kaalia of the Vast}
These guys for sure. I'd add {Riku of Two Reflections} to the list. His abilities are easily abused and can take over a game quickly. Also, {Grand Arbiter Augustin IV}, if built correctly, is very powerful control.
I love both of those but I feel they are both Animar level in that they can be rediculous but they dont inherently break the game.
Should we work on a teir list of commanders and possibly affect the magic community as a whole by leveling the playing field for players though education on which commanders are by default OP, which can be broken under certain circumstances, and assume all not mentioned are simply fun or weak?
{Mayael the Anima}
Free creatures nonstop
{Scion of the Ur-Dragon}
{conspiracy} combo makes people angry when you pull out {Progenitus} for another 10 swing
Quote from: Muggywuggy on May 01, 2013, 04:01:41 PM
{Mayael the Anima}
Free creatures nonstop
{Scion of the Ur-Dragon}
{conspiracy} combo makes people angry when you pull out {Progenitus} for another 10 swing
Mayael's ability costs six mana, so you're not really getting free creatures. She was my first commander, and even at that decks strongest build, I decided to take it apart as I didn't see her as a competitive enough commander.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 01, 2013, 02:45:37 PM
Quote from: Moneekahh on May 01, 2013, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 30, 2013, 04:10:54 PM
I don't like competitive edh, but the best commanders:
{Jhoira of the Ghitu}
{Zur the Enchanter}
{Kaalia of the Vast}
These guys for sure. I'd add {Riku of Two Reflections} to the list. His abilities are easily abused and can take over a game quickly. Also, {Grand Arbiter Augustin IV}, if built correctly, is very powerful control.
I love both of those but I feel they are both Animar level in that they can be rediculous but they dont inherently break the game.
Should we work on a teir list of commanders and possibly affect the magic community as a whole by leveling the playing field for players though education on which commanders are by default OP, which can be broken under certain circumstances, and assume all not mentioned are simply fun or weak?
That's a great idea! :)
{Sharuum the Hegemon} and {Edric, Spymaster of Trest} are VERY GOOD, and trust me because it is very little that I win over them with top of the line decks.
Sharuum is very good with combo. My friend has been able to make it so he gets {Sword of the Meek}, {Thopter Foundry}, {Time Sieve} combo out turn 3 almost every time. Plus there are at least 20 more combos that win you the game.
Edric is filled with cards that are unblockable, {Propaganda} type cards, even a {Thada Adel, Acquisitor} that pisses everybody off.
{Sharuum the Hegemon} combos off no matter what happens around it. It is in some ways WAYYYY worse then {Zur the Enchanter}. It stinks that they broke Esper commanders (including {Sen Triplets}). Esper has some really powerful cards, and gets a bad rep for its commanders. I play {Dromar, the Banisher} in a {Sen Triplets} deck because I can't weather the hate storm.
Agreed, DC. It's unfortunate how big of a target Esper immediately gets on its head. And that's another thing about a Zur deck. If he can't lock your opponent out of the game within the first 3-6 turns, all the infinite Esper combos probably can.
I believe I already discussed with you the unfortunate end to my Sen Triplets deck. It's upsetting I can't play my favorite color combination.
And Kaleo, I like the idea about leveling the playing field with info on the commanders. It could certainly help some people out.
My {Arcum Dagsson} often wins turn four. It's nice to get a {Darksteel Forge} out turn two.
{Oona, Queen of the Fae} can win the turn she comes out with infinite mana combos. My favorite and easy to hit with tutors {Basalt Monolith} + {Rings of Brighthearth}
Quote from: Mactitioner on May 04, 2013, 12:03:56 AM
{Oona, Queen of the Fae} can win the turn she comes out with infinite mana combos. My favorite and easy to hit with tutors {Basalt Monolith} + {Rings of Brighthearth}
How does that work?
The pay two to untap is an activated ability, if you pay 3 to copy that ability you can tap it for mana in between the two untap abilities which means it costs you {5} to create {6}. Do that over and over.
Esper commanders go up there in the strong commanders, but they are not broken. Those commanders are reliant on things within the deck to be good, things that could be banned. So really what is broken about those is the fact esper colors give you access to a majority of commander's best cards.