Hello can someone explain to me this combo please {Teferi's puzzle box} + {notion thief}
Quote from: Raven316 on April 30, 2013, 06:57:36 AM
Hello can someone explain to me this combo please {Teferi's puzzle box} + {notion thief}
simple. You steal the opponents draw step and draw cards equal to the number of cards they had in there hand, and they get rid of there hand
Although it does say "except the first one, so they may get at least 1 card
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 30, 2013, 07:02:58 AM
Although it does say "except the first one, so they may get at least 1 card
That's It about {notion thief} alone do they still draw one card and if there are others then its ability kicks in?
They keep one card the others you draw. If they had seven cards, then you draw six and they draw one.
However it's not that good of a combo because they keep putting their one card hand and drawing a new card.
You would get their whole hand. The puzzle box's ruling from Gatherer:
10/4/2004 You do your normal draw before this ability is put on the stack.
It doesn't replace their draw step. They would draw a card, the puzzle box would kick in, and you would draw all the cards they're supposed to draw. Pretty evil.
Oh. The box said "at the beginning of the draw step" so they draw a card, and then the draw step happens?
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 30, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
Oh. The box said "at the beginning of the draw step" so they draw a card, and then the draw step happens?
It happens during the draw step, just right after you draw your card. Since it doesn't say "instead", it isn't a replacement effect, and won't deny you your regular card draw.
Thanks
Quote from: Raven316 on April 30, 2013, 11:44:51 AM
Thanks
No problem! {Notion Thief} is an evil, evil card. Really mean (and fun) to build around!
Quote from: Keyeto on April 30, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: Raven316 on April 30, 2013, 11:44:51 AM
Thanks
No problem! {Notion Thief} is an evil, evil card. Really mean (and fun) to build around!
I totally agree that's why I want to learn it inside out before I figure out ways to abuse it ;)
I actually believe that in a couple months he will be broken by some modern player in a crazy control or combo deck and get him to 30 - 40 bucks, to then settle on about 20+.
I put this in combos last week. If you have both cards in hand, play puzzle box first.. Then when it comes to your next turn. Untap, upkeep, flash in notion thief, draw, puzzle box.. Unless your opponents have a removal in their hands to play by their next turn, they are screwed
If you have a {Reliquary Tower} out you'll be able to keep all the cards in your hand from the box hitting opponents. After the box has hit your opponent or opponents the first time, you'll only be drawing one card since they won't have any in hand and draw 1 card a draw step, but will lose it.
Would he work with {howling mines}?
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 10, 2013, 04:17:04 PM
Would he work with {howling mines}?
Yep! Any time they draw a card other than the first alotted by the draw step.
I used Notion Thief with Time Reversal and Spiraling Embers. We usually play multiplayer games, so it hurts bad when it goes off
Quote from: Tsaos on May 11, 2013, 09:51:31 PM
I used {Notion Thief} with {Time Reversal} and {Spiraling Embers}. We usually play multiplayer games, so it hurts bad when it goes off
{Notion Thief}
{Spiraling Embers}
{Time Reversal}
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
Wow, my friend is going to hate that answer lol.. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.
Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.
It will have an effect on the next turn though :P
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.
Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.
So, if the opponent cannot play a spell until the draw phase has ended, and the trigger abilities of the puzzlebox and notion thief resolve during that draw step. Wouldn't the opponent not be able to respond with a card that they draw?
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 07:12:23 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on June 04, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?
Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.
That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.
Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.
So, if the opponent cannot play a spell until the draw phase has ended, and the trigger abilities of the puzzlebox and notion thief resolve during that draw step. Wouldn't the opponent not be able to respond with a card that they draw?
Yes. Anyone may play a spell after the puzzle box triggers.
There are three situations when a player can add something to the stack:
• when a phase ends (stack is cleared and nothing else is to happen. It is still considered to be in the phase which is ending, not the one which will begin)
• when it is your main phase and the stack is clear (sorcery speed)
• when something new is added to the stack
So, in normal conditions, you cannot play anything during draw phase, except when it ends. The puzzle box adds a trigger to that phase, though, which uses the stack. This means you can play instants in answer to that trigger, even if it is the draw phase.
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 10:39:05 PM
There are three situations when a player can add something to the stack:
• when a phase ends (stack is cleared and nothing else is to happen. It is still considered to be in the phase which is ending, not the one which will begin)
• when it is your main phase and the stack is clear (sorcery speed)
• when something new is added to the stack
So, in normal conditions, you cannot play anything during draw phase, except when it ends. The puzzle box adds a trigger to that phase, though, which uses the stack. This means you can play instants in answer to that trigger, even if it is the draw phase.
Ok. So the comments before made me believe that the opponent could not play at all during the draw phase, but since those abilities trigger a stack the opponent could technically play an instant if they drew it.
I believe it should look like this if I have it correct. What do you guys think?
Draw Phase (One Card)
Puzzle Box (Added to the stack)
Notion Thief (Added to the Stack)
Lightning Bolt (If the card drawn by the opponent, can be played and added to the stack)
--Stack Done
Lighting Bolt (Resolves, Killing Notion thief. Making the main player unable to steal cards)
Notion Thief (Dead, unable to resolve)
Puzzle Box (Resolves)
You got it right, except for this: if the thief dies, it's ability still resolves. It doesn't target him, so it does not become illegal. Once something hits the stack, it is independent of the source. Same happens if you draw an instant which destroys the puzzle box
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 11:21:51 PM
You got it right, except for this: if the thief dies, it's ability still resolves. It doesn't target him, so it does not become illegal. Once something hits the stack, it is independent of the source. Same happens if you draw an instant which destroys the puzzle box
Thank you for verifying sir! I actually had no idea abilities on the stack still resolved based on its target. I thought if a spell or ability is put on the stack on top of a previous (that destroys that permanent), that the previous spell on the stack fizzles.
Are you 100% on that, or anyone else want to chime in. I do believe you could be right, but this changes my understanding of how I thought the stack worked, the last 10 years of my life I have thought different lol..
Quote from: imreallyagoodman on June 04, 2013, 11:26:27 PM
Quote from: Mentonin on June 04, 2013, 11:21:51 PM
You got it right, except for this: if the thief dies, it's ability still resolves. It doesn't target him, so it does not become illegal. Once something hits the stack, it is independent of the source. Same happens if you draw an instant which destroys the puzzle box
Thank you for verifying sir! I actually had no idea abilities on the stack still resolved based on its target. I thought if a spell or ability is put on the stack on top of a previous (that destroys that permanent), that the previous spell on the stack fizzles.
Are you 100% on that, or anyone else want to chime in. I do believe you could be right, but this changes my understanding of how I thought the stack worked, the last 10 years of my life I have thought different lol..
I am absolutely certain. Check out the stickied post here in Rules, part of my FAQ for it is how abilities are independent of their sources once on the stack.
And if you won't take my word for it, here's the ruling! Bolded for convenience:
112.7a (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=112.7a): Once activated or triggered,
an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Thank you for the clarification sir! Very helpful :)