Q1: if I have {Scion of the Ur-Dragon} out + {conspiracy}, can I select {Progenitus} ? Or is he protected from conspir?
Q2: May I play {Progenitus} from my hand ala {elvish piper}?
Protection only applies once the creature is on the battlefield, so yeah, all of those are fine.
If I'm wrong about that, none of those cards target, so they're still fine.
Yes, protectn only applies if {progenitus} is a permanent, in the hand or deck he has no abilities.
Niiiiice.
Does Progenitus have to resolve in the graveyard for scions effect if so it doesn't work
Quote from: Magicmike on July 20, 2016, 06:58:57 AM
Does Progenitus have to resolve in the graveyard for scions effect if so it doesn't work
Scion doesn't care what happens to the creature, it just attempts to throw it away.
Ok then it works
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 20, 2016, 10:33:41 AM
Quote from: Magicmike on July 20, 2016, 06:58:57 AM
Does Progenitus have to resolve in the graveyard for scions effect if so it doesn't work
Scion doesn't care what happens to the creature, it just attempts to throw it away.
Not sur about this one. can someone enlighten me with more explanation?
Quote from: Co2 on July 21, 2016, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 20, 2016, 10:33:41 AM
Quote from: Magicmike on July 20, 2016, 06:58:57 AM
Does Progenitus have to resolve in the graveyard for scions effect if so it doesn't work
Scion doesn't care what happens to the creature, it just attempts to throw it away.
Not sur about this one. can someone enlighten me with more explanation?
im not sure either. Scion says "search library for dragon, put into grave. IF YOU DO, Scion becomes copy", while Progenitus says "IF you would put in into your grave from anywhere, shuffle it into your library INSTEAD", so it never reaches the grave, which doesnt fullfil Scions desire of the dragon being put into the graveyard.
Quote from: mickeven on July 21, 2016, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: Co2 on July 21, 2016, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 20, 2016, 10:33:41 AM
Quote from: Magicmike on July 20, 2016, 06:58:57 AM
Does Progenitus have to resolve in the graveyard for scions effect if so it doesn't work
Scion doesn't care what happens to the creature, it just attempts to throw it away.
Not sur about this one. can someone enlighten me with more explanation?
im not sure either. Scion says "search library for dragon, put into grave. IF YOU DO, Scion becomes copy", while Progenitus says "IF you would put in into your grave from anywhere, shuffle it into your library INSTEAD", so it never reaches the grave, which doesnt fullfil Scions desire of the dragon being put into the graveyard.
From Gatherer rules:
9/25/2006: Removing the other Dragon card from your graveyard has no effect on Scion of the Ur-Dragon.
9/25/2006: When Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of another Dragon, it loses its copy ability for the rest of the turn.
Quote from: SpectatingLurker on July 21, 2016, 01:53:37 PM
Rare is correct.
Scion only cares that you searched, found and removed from deck.
If the "Dragon" finds its way somewhere else then that is fine.
I don't know. It says that removing it from the graveyard has no effect, but Progenitus never reached the graveyard in the first place.
Scion only cares if you "attempted" to put it into the graveyard, searched and revealed, and removed from the deck. Any replacement effect that makes it so cards don't go into the graveyard won't matter for scions ability. It's the thought that counts *winks, smiles, teeth sparkle*
At least that's how I'm thinking about it :)
When {Progenitus} is put in the graveyard it triggers to be shuffle back into library. It still hit gy.
Quote from: Avnger345 on July 22, 2016, 07:33:17 AM
When {Progenitus} is put in the graveyard it triggers to be shuffle back into library. It still hit gy.
Well the card actually says if it would hit gy, shuffle it into library instead.
Quote from: Avnger345 on July 22, 2016, 07:33:17 AM
When {Progenitus} is put in the graveyard it triggers to be shuffle back into library. It still hit gy.
Progenitus isn't a trigger. The Eldrazi Titans are triggers, but Progenitus (and {Blightsteel Collosus} for example) aren't - they're replacement effects.
But it doesn't matter if it hits the GY or not. The replacement effect just changes Scion to say (basically) "Tutor for a dragon, reveal it, and Scion copies it. Shuffle the revealed card into your library."
so the "if you do" clause in Scion gets ignored?
You're following the rules of scion to discard it to GY, scion becomes progo copy
Progo card hits GY, replacement effect causes it to be shuffled back in deck
Talk about necro rule
Quote from: mickeven on July 22, 2016, 11:36:06 AM
so the "if you do" clause in Scion gets ignored?
No. The if you do includes the tutor.
Im just playing devils advocate here. I want to make sure its right because we dont have any rulings on this.
Quote from: griffin131 on July 22, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 22, 2016, 11:36:06 AM
so the "if you do" clause in Scion gets ignored?
No. The if you do includes the tutor.
but the "if you do" also include the putting into graveyard.
Quote from: Themugz on July 22, 2016, 06:20:10 PM
You're following the rules of scion to discard it to GY, scion becomes progo copy
Progo card hits GY, replacement effect causes it to be shuffled back in deck
Talk about necro rule
does progo really hit GY? i believe the replacement effect prevents it from hitting Grave. If it does hit the grave then my other argument is invalid and this definitely works.
Progo can't have the reshuffle trigger happen unless Progo is meant to be placed into the GY
Scion can fail to search, so that's probably why the "if you do" exist.
You can't break an items actions down by sentence once the ability resolves, so scions actions would follow through all the way, then progos trigger would follow on the stack.
If you could respond to each action of a cards ability the game would be far different. Thoughtseize and other reveal hand/discard, etc would work in a much stranger manner if you could respond to each sentence in a cards ability
found the ruling:
117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesnt], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesnt], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesnt]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.