1 {Watery Grave}
4 {Drowned Catacomb}
4 {Dimir Guildgate}
3 {Haunted Fengraf}
9 {Swamp}
3 {Island}
24 lands
2 {Mikaeus, the Unhallowed}
2 {Havengul Lich}
3 {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}
3 {Geralf's Messenger}
4 {Diregraf Captain}
4 {Gravecrawler}
18 creatures
2 {Liliana of the Dark Realms}
2 {Grimoire of the Dead}
2 {Killing Wave}
3 {Rooftop Storm}
4 {Endless Ranks of the Dead}
4 {Murder}
1 {Zombie Apocalypse}
18 other spells
Sideboard
2 {Zombie Apocalypse}
1 {Cellar Door}
1 {Moan of the Unhallowed}
3 {Ghoulcaller's Chant}
4 {Vampire Nighthawk}
4 {Falkenrath Noble}
15 sideboard cards
Notes:
Advice appreciated
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Bit of a costly curve. The deck doesn't seem to get into shape around turn 4-5, with nothing to really stabilize with.
What could I do to fix it?
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 02, 2013, 07:46:12 PM
What could I do to fix it?
Get more 1-3 drops ({Highborn Ghoul}, {Knight of Infamy}, ect) and more control spells perhaps (like {Ultimate Price}, {Dimir Charm}, {Tribute to Hunger}). Things to keep the board clear until you can get to the 5 mana cost things.
I already have {gravecrawler}, {Diregraf Captain}& {Geralf's Messenger}
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 02, 2013, 08:16:25 PM
I already have {gravecrawler}, {Diregraf Captain}& {Geralf's Messenger}
Four 1-drops and six 3-drops won't cut it. Look at all the popular decks, they're all running at such a low curve that it could conceivably be outclassed before the 3rd turn.
{Diregraf Captain} isn't very good, It's a grounded 2/2, the +1/+1 isn't really relevant and the death touch isn't incredible. That'd be amongst the first cards I removed. Really all it does is trade with their best creature (some of the time).
Without getting into complex game logic. The purpose of this deck is getting the opponents life to 0. A 2/2 for 3 mana will not get you there. Most new players see the +1/+1 and think "well if I get 2 of them out, I'll have 2, 3/3s!" Or better yet "if I have 3 of them out!". The problem with this is that you've got a 60 card deck, probability is not on your side. Also in a perfect world your game would look like this;
Turn 3: land, {Diregraf Captain}. 0 mana open.
Turn 4: land, {Diregraf Captain}. 1 mana open. Swing for 3 (if you're lucky.)
Turn 5: land, {Diregraf Captain}, 2 mana open and nothing to cast, swing for 8.
That miracle hand resulted in 11 damage, and that is assuming you can even attack with them and not use em as blockers. Next turn would win, but ask yourself: if you've able to push through all that damage without an opponent answering it; you were gonna win anyway right? Additionally, is it worth it to pay 3 mana to trade with someone's creature? The goal afterall is to get them to 0. If you wanna spend mana on a chump blocker - {Vampire Nighthawk}. He's got flying, lifelink AND deathtouch.
And not to be "that guy", but the inevitability of any aggro deck that doesn't gain card advantage or some type of stability will be topdecking with no answers immediately. {Supreme Verdict} and {Mizzium Mortars} can make short work of budget decks unfortunately.
The choice is in your hands now: make a much faster aggro deck or stall long enough to drop bombs.
I wish i could analyze cards so logically
Quote from: MisterJH on April 02, 2013, 09:07:24 PM
I wish i could analyze cards so logically
I've been at this for a long time. Most kids at the LGS are sick of me evaluating cards, then complain about losing.
XD its probably not very fun getting schooled by the adult
Quote from: MisterJH on April 02, 2013, 09:21:29 PM
XD its probably not very fun getting schooled by the adult
I could see that. I'm not the greatest either, just do some simple tests and work off experience with cards. One simple test that I've talked about before:
Vanilla Test: a creatures power and toughness should equal it's mana cost. For 3 mana I should get a 3/3. For 7 mana I should get a 7/7.
Some exceptions are cards with AMAZING abilities. But generally, I should be paying 1 mana per 1/1.
Smashes the test: {Boros Reckoner}
Passes the test with extra credit: {Geist of Saint Traft}
Passes: {Champion of the Parish}
Fails: {Diregraf Captain}
Thanks ill put {Vampire Nighthawk} in my sideboard and also {Rooftop Storm} for an infinite combo with {Gravecrawler}, {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}, and {Diregraf Captain}
There that's the final updated deck list
Let me know if its good
In all honesty, by the time you get six mana for {Zombie Apocalypse}, the creatures coming in tapped will get you killed unless they are playing humans, and if your creatures are all in the graveyard, you're probably dead already, even if they are playing humans (a generally quick deck type.) I'd say that should be a one of at most.
Edit: and with {Mikaeus, the Unhallowed}, {Gravecrawler}, and {Geralf's Messenger}, they shouldn't be hitting the GY anyways.
I know I've been considering removing it for a while now because I draw it and don't even need to use it
Question: liliana of the dark realms is doing what exactly in this deck? Shes mana mana into mikaeus and the zombir apocalypse, but thats not a very good reason to play her as youll have a gross excess of mana at that point.
I know this is zombies, but {blood artist} possibly?
Mostly to pump big mikaeus with her 2nd ability
Quote from: Boyesrobert on April 02, 2013, 11:18:45 PM
I know this is zombies, but {blood artist} possibly?
This. I'd say maindeck the {Blood Artist} and add more if you're going to run {Killing Wave}. Play it for zero, sac everything, bring them all back with undying and do a billion damage via {Blood Artist}
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 02, 2013, 10:15:44 PM
Thanks ill put {Vampire Nighthawk} in my sideboard and also {Rooftop Storm} for an infinite combo with {Gravecrawler}, {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}, and {Diregraf Captain}
Playset of blood artist in place of diregraf? One mana cheaper and its a 2 life swing EACH death, including theirs. Also it seems to be ok with your gravecrawlers an grimgrins.
Blood artist is already in the sideboard
Try using {Havengul Lich} rather than {Zombie Apocalypse}. It's 1 cheaper and it will allow you to recast grimgrin if he gets binned.
{falkenrath noble} has a good ability with the combo
You have 1 SBd blood artist, when with the deck you my be better off with 4 MBd is all were trying to say. Its worth a try.
Ok there's my final plan I think
I would mainboard 4x {blood artist} as well as {mutilate}. I don't like {diregraf captain} personally
Quote from: Boyesrobert on April 03, 2013, 12:32:26 PM
I would mainboard 4x {blood artist} as well as {mutilate}. I don't like {diregraf captain} personally
This!!
Come on {Diregraf Captain} is a good card if you think about it
I mean its no planeswalker but come on quit hating on a good card
I think it's a waste of a spot. As well as {liliana of the dark realms}, this deck has potential, but it's not quite there yet
Also, I would get rid of most if not all of the cards that bring zombies back for some 1-2 drops, such as {diregraf ghoul}, and {tragic slip}
I'd drop {liliana of the dark realms}. Her only decent ability is the -3 that you'll realistically only get to use once before shes taken out or the game ends. And she only hits one creature. Instead, I'd add {mutilate}. Same CMC and it hits all creatures, which can be beneficial for you in you're in a pinch or if you have a {blood artist} out.
{Diregraf captain} is really not that great of a card. Deathtouch doesn't make it unique, the buff isn't enough to make a difference and is easily dealt with, and its too slow. The only redeeming ability is the second ability, and even then, {blood artist} is a way better alternative. Zombies are meant to be fast and flood the board. {Diregraf captain} does neither.
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on April 03, 2013, 02:55:07 PM
I'd drop {liliana of the dark realms}. Her only decent ability is the -3 that you'll realistically only get to use once before shes taken out or the game ends. And she only hits one creature. Instead, I'd add {mutilate}. Same CMC and it hits all creatures, which can be beneficial for you in you're in a pinch or if you have a {blood artist} out.
{Diregraf captain} is really not that great of a card. Deathtouch doesn't make it unique, the buff isn't enough to make a difference and is easily dealt with, and its too slow. The only redeeming ability is the second ability, and even then, {blood artist} is a way better alternative. Zombies are meant to be fast and flood the board. {Diregraf captain} does neither.
Yeah, what he said
What Boyesrobert said, {Diregraf Ghoul}! 2/2's for 1 are great early game, even with their typical drawback.
{Rooftop Storm} is the definition of worthless, let alone 4 of them. I'd sideboard some {Negate} and other stuff, well really I'd main board them, but my deck wouldn't look anything like this. I'd say ditch the {Rooftop Storm} for sure.
Also, I really like {vampire nighthawk} really in any deck that runs black, he is just way too good!
That's why I sideboarded {Vampire Nighthawk}
But you have quite a few worthless mainboard cards in my opinion
I'd say immediately think
4 {Gravecrawler}
4 {Diregraf Ghoul}
4 {Vamprie Nighthawk}
4 {Gerlaf's Messenger}
The more I'm looking at it, what is the purpose of {U} outside of {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}? This could probably be mono {B} easily.
{Haunted Fengraf}
{Grimoire of the Dead}
{Zombie Apocalypse}
{Ghoulcaller's Chant}
{Secrets of the Dead}
{Rooftop Storm}
I'd say start by removing these. They don't do that much, if anything :-\
Quote from: Silent1236 on April 03, 2013, 03:17:11 PM
I'd say immediately think
4 {Gravecrawler}
4 {Diregraf Ghoul}
4 {Vamprie Nighthawk}
4 {Gerlaf's Messenger}
The more I'm looking at it, what is the purpose of {U} outside of {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}? This could probably be mono {B} easily.
{Haunted Fengraf}
{Grimoire of the Dead}
{Zombie Apocalypse}
{Ghoulcaller's Chant}
{Secrets of the Dead}
{Rooftop Storm}
I'd say start by removing these. They don't do that much, if anything :-\
I agree, mono black is looking pretty nice for this deck right now. In that case, {crypt ghast} and {griselbrand} I would recommend
I'm trying to keep my {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}
{Diregraf Captain} & {Gravecrawler} combo
{Rooftop Storm} is just to make the combo infinite
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 03, 2013, 03:26:47 PM
I'm trying to keep my {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}
{Diregraf Captain} & {Gravecrawler} combo
{Rooftop Storm} is just to make the combo infinite
Very low probability of working and a very high mana curve
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 03, 2013, 03:26:47 PM
I'm trying to keep my {Grimgrin, Corpse-Born}
{Diregraf Captain} & {Gravecrawler} combo
{Rooftop Storm} is just to make the combo infinite
As far as combos go, this is a combo best used at the kitchen table. It's too slow to be effective. If you want a combo for douche baggery, use {Boros Reckoner}, {Boros Charm}, and {Azorious Charm}. It's cheap and quick. In standard, with so many decks that'll win by turn 4 or 5, you won't be able to really combo off there.
It actually works more than you would expect
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 03, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
It actually works more than you would expect
I've used it, it doesn't.
Dude, you gotta just start listening to these guys more, you are getting a buttload of good advice and hardly taking any of it.
It works for me all the time when I try ands play test
So no more advice?
Well take it to FNM, and when you don't win anything come back here and consider some of the good advice you've been given. Sorry to be harsh but these guys are right, if your meta is anywhere near as competitive as mine, you will get NOWHERE running {diregraf captain} and {rooftop storm}
This is my way of running zombies at a slower non aggro pace
You definitely need some decent one or two drops, because fast aggro is still a thing. Youre only one drop can't block. I recommend {diregraf ghoul}, {rakdos cackler}, and even {butchered ghoul}. I realize it might be budget, but if you're trying to win, drop the guildgates and spring for the {watery grave}s or at least {drowned catacomb}. Or even go mono-{B}. Also 4x {murder}s is a little excessive. I'd drop two and add 2x {ultimate price}s. Maybe even drop all of them and go 2x ultimate price and 2x {tragic slip}s. Just offering some advice. Good luck!
I would add {Tragic Slip}
Man if this kind of deck works in your area I wanna go play there. I would be able to run over everything lol. But as everyone has said before, listen to the advice. That's he point of adding your deck to this board. Put your ego aside and try the changes. It's amazing how someone who isn't you looks at your deck and can see things that you may have looked over. I know I wouldn't be half as decent as I am if it wasn't from listening to other people.
Well I understand you guys are giving good advice. But at the same time, it's his deck. Maybe he enjoys the way it plays. Maybe he will add your advice in later when he sees fit. But getting mad because he won't take your advice is silly. The point of this community is to help. Don't be prideful and get mad cause he doesn't use every single persons advice. We helped, and we put forth our effort, that's the entire point of this app. It's his decision to do what he wants with it, and we have to respect it.
Quote from: Mothaelon on April 03, 2013, 08:29:14 PM
Well I understand you guys are giving good advice. But at the same time, it's his deck. Maybe he enjoys the way it plays. Maybe he will add your advice in later when he sees fit. But getting mad because he won't take your advice is silly. The point of this community is to help. Don't be prideful and get mad cause he doesn't use every single persons advice. We helped, and we put forth our effort, that's the entire point of this app. It's his decision to do what he wants with it, and we have to respect it.
Exactly!
I think I'll play one fnm with it the way it ios then change it if I see fit
Quote from: Mothaelon on April 03, 2013, 08:29:14 PM
Well I understand you guys are giving good advice. But at the same time, it's his deck. Maybe he enjoys the way it plays. Maybe he will add your advice in later when he sees fit. But getting mad because he won't take your advice is silly. The point of this community is to help. Don't be prideful and get mad cause he doesn't use every single persons advice. We helped, and we put forth our effort, that's the entire point of this app. It's his decision to do what he wants with it, and we have to respect it.
I hope I wasn't coming across angry :-\ Just trying to throw out some suggestions!
That's fine I undestand
It's cool bro😋
I did make a few Ganges that were suggested
What do you guys think?
I really want to try this and just see how it goes. How often do you win?
This will be my first fnm with this deck
It has been doing ok against my moms angel deck, (yes my mom plays so I use her as target practice)
Any other ideas?
Quote from: Mothaelon on April 03, 2013, 08:29:14 PM
Well I understand you guys are giving good advice. But at the same time, it's his deck. Maybe he enjoys the way it plays. Maybe he will add your advice in later when he sees fit. But getting mad because he won't take your advice is silly. The point of this community is to help. Don't be prideful and get mad cause he doesn't use every single persons advice. We helped, and we put forth our effort, that's the entire point of this app. It's his decision to do what he wants with it, and we have to respect it.
He asked for help. Posted something on "general" board asking for help. I provided help, wrote a mini-essay on card evaluation. None of the advice was followed, in fact another {Diregraf Captain} was added. {Rooftop Storm} was main boarded! Why would you ask for help, then do the complete opposite of anyone's advice? Might as well just do what you want to do, and not involve anyone.
The deck is no good. It's not even good for a budget player. Wanna win FNM? Play a completely other deck, and not an antiquated Innistrad zombies deck. That good enough advice? Malachiracer - *washes hands* I'm out.
^COMPLETELY Agreed.
Quote from: Dudecore on April 03, 2013, 11:33:41 PM
Quote from: Mothaelon on April 03, 2013, 08:29:14 PM
Well I understand you guys are giving good advice. But at the same time, it's his deck. Maybe he enjoys the way it plays. Maybe he will add your advice in later when he sees fit. But getting mad because he won't take your advice is silly. The point of this community is to help. Don't be prideful and get mad cause he doesn't use every single persons advice. We helped, and we put forth our effort, that's the entire point of this app. It's his decision to do what he wants with it, and we have to respect it.
He asked for help. Posted something on "general" board asking for help. I provided help, wrote a mini-essay on card evaluation. None of the advice was followed, in fact another {Diregraf Captain} was added. {Rooftop Storm} was main boarded! Why would you ask for help, then do the complete opposite of anyone's advice? Might as well just do what you want to do, and not involve anyone.
The deck is no good. It's not even good for a budget player. Wanna win FNM? Play a completely other deck, and not an antiquated Innistrad zombies deck. That good enough advice? Malachiracer - *washes hands* I'm out.
Haha
Ill probably end up taking that advice
I just built this as my first rouge deck.
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 04, 2013, 12:08:49 AM
Ill probably end up taking that advice
I just built this as my first rouge deck.
Rogue decks use cards that meta decks don't have answers for, and get taken by surprise - thus the name. 60 cards that {Supreme Verdict} handles readily does not constitute going rogue. Cards that gain absolutely no traction against {Boros Charm} + Anything don't win games either.
I'm failing at any attempt of not being cruel, and I genuinely am not concerned if you win FNM or not. Also, I've got no problems with you as a player or a user of the forum. Just keep in mind if you ask for assistance - please heed the advice on a player level - not only a deck builder level.
There is absolutely nothing I have to gain/lose by giving you free advice. This is a strictly voluntary.
Ok what is your first reccomendation while trying to keep it blue black zombies
This time I will actually listen
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 04, 2013, 12:23:32 AM
This time I will actually listen
I am over this already. The rest of the community is encouraged to help a fellow member in need. I've said my piece.
Quote from: Malachiracer on April 04, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
Ok what is your first reccomendation while trying to keep it blue black zombies
Did you not read anything that was posted on this deck beforehand? You want us to reiterate what we've already said instead of going back and reading it? Laziness, my friend, will not get you very far in life.
I give all this nice advice, and end up getting a down vote for it, damn:/ makes me want to not give advice anymore
Ha I won quite a bit with my modded version of this
Record?
2-2
Not bad
Yep