What is everyone's opinion on this? Which Counterspell is best? I'm wondering because I just got a {Mana Drain} in trade today, and if you ask me that is the best Counterspell.
{force of will} trumps all.
Example: player 1 playing first (probably vintage)
Player 1: "I will play my whole hand and win!"
Player 2: "ummmm no, {force of will}"
The ability to stop something your opponent is trying to do before you have even played a land is just too good.
Why is mana drain more expensive? I know some of it is rarity and age. But doesn't the playability of a card come into factor?
Quote from: Imdowd80 on April 02, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Why is mana drain more expensive? I know some of it is rarity and age. But doesn't the playability of a card come into factor?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Portal 3 kingdoms and some of alphas stuff is pretty useless but it can be worth hundreds. Usually I've seen cards if they're playable reach about $100 like {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}
Quote from: Imdowd80 on April 02, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Why is mana drain more expensive? I know some of it is rarity and age. But doesn't the playability of a card come into factor?
I wondered this as well, then I thought about it. It doesn't just counter the spell at 2 blue (like good reliable {Counterspell}) but it accelerates blue decks an insane amount, and blue's weakness is always a lack of mana. That's why people appreciate FOW.
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
Quote from: Imdowd80 on April 02, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Why is mana drain more expensive? I know some of it is rarity and age. But doesn't the playability of a card come into factor?
I wondered this as well, then I thought about it. It doesn't just counter the spell at 2 blue (like good reliable {Counterspell}) but it accelerates blue decks an insane amount, and blue's weakness is always a lack of mana. That's why people appreciate FOW.
Sorta. The odds you'll be able to use that mana are relatively low but it being there could potentially help. I think being restricted to Vintage makes it pretty useless for all but the most hardcore players. That being said... I wouldn't mind having one. Haha
{Force of Will} is best. {Mana Drain} is strictly better then {Counterspell}, but it too is overstated. If {Mana Drain} was unbanned in Legacy tomorrow, I see few decks even playing it. What you yield off {Mana Drain} is rarely any good (I own 2 myself).
It's also uncommon, so it was never included on the Reserve list. (Same as {Force of Will}). {Mana Drain} used to suck when mana burn was in the rules. Now It's one of the cool cards you dream about playing with - it is also among my favorites. It just reads more scary then it plays.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on April 02, 2013, 03:19:09 PM
{force of will} trumps all.
Example: player 1 playing first (probably vintage)
Player 1: "I will play my whole hand and win!"
Player 2: "ummmm no, {force of will}"
The ability to stop something your opponent is trying to do before you have even played a land is just too good.
Vintage games do not last that short. Vintage is misconstrued as an extremely degenerate format but in all
reality it is extremely elegant and lasts until around turn 8 most of the time, slower than standard and has
entire podcasts dedicated to single turns because of it's skill intensity.
I think Force of Will is the best but in formats with Force of Will, Mental Misstep is the best.
I've always like {Power Sink}
{Last Word}
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
depending on what you play from the {Counterlash}, it pretty much pays for itself especially if you can put out an {Omniscience} or something of that magnitude
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Got my {Desertion} in my Esper EDH deck. It always steals something different.
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Got my {Desertion} in my Esper EDH deck. It always steals something different.
And it's just such a good feeling when you snag something big, too! Who is your commander?
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Got my {Desertion} in my Esper EDH deck. It always steals something different.
And it's just such a good feeling when you snag something big, too! Who is your commander?
{Dromar, the Banisher}. His ability has a bit of chemistry with {Desertion}. Bounce it, they cast it, I steal it. You can check it out here. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=17406.0)
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 07:58:05 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Got my {Desertion} in my Esper EDH deck. It always steals something different.
And it's just such a good feeling when you snag something big, too! Who is your commander?
{Dromar, the Banisher}. His ability has a bit of chemistry with {Desertion}. Bounce it, they cast it, I steal it. You can check it out here. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=17406.0)
Awesome commander. I will try and upload my Riku list tonight. It's a little all over the place, but {Desertion} does work. If only the stolen creature triggered riku's ability.
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Emrakul can't be countered though 😕
And I think it I have to agree with {Force of Will}. I'm also a big fan of {Rewind}. Yeah, it costs a bit much, but if you can afford it, you essentially counter for free. Pretty good in my book!
Quote from: Keyeto on April 02, 2013, 08:38:06 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Emrakul can't be countered though 😕
And I think it I have to agree with {Force of Will}. I'm also a big fan of {Rewind}. Yeah, it costs a bit much, but if you can afford it, you essentially counter for free. Pretty good in my book!
Haha, you're totally right about Emrakul.
Can I say {Remand}, simply for the flavour text?
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 09:04:36 PM
Can I say {Remand}, simply for the flavour text?
I worked the {Isochron Scepter} + {Remand} setup into one of my decks. I love drawing cards.
Lmao {Isochron Scepter} goes well with pretty much anything
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 10:00:18 PM
Lmao {Isochron Scepter} goes well with pretty much anything
{Isochron Scepter} + {Orim's Chant} is always fun for one player.
Quote from: Xaol on April 03, 2013, 05:43:55 AM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 10:00:18 PM
Lmao {Isochron Scepter} goes well with pretty much anything
{Isochron Scepter} + {Orim's Chant} is always fun for one player.
Ya, too bad it isn't solitaire. I will punch orim's chant in the face!
Quote from: Keyeto on April 02, 2013, 08:38:06 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Emrakul can't be countered though 😕
And I think it I have to agree with {Force of Will}. I'm also a big fan of {Rewind}. Yeah, it costs a bit much, but if you can afford it, you essentially counter for free. Pretty good in my book!
also you can't play emrakul in edh
Quote from: Greg54js on April 03, 2013, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on April 02, 2013, 08:38:06 PM
Quote from: Xaol on April 02, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on April 02, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: KILLERBEE on April 02, 2013, 06:42:24 PM
You can't {Force of Will} a {Last Word} ;)
But you can expect them to tap for 4 mana.
If mana were no object - I'd love {Counterlash} or {Desertion}.
I LOVE desertion. Best Counterspell in my Riku EDH by far! Oh, you'll cast Emrakul? Awesome. Thanks.
Emrakul can't be countered though 😕
And I think it I have to agree with {Force of Will}. I'm also a big fan of {Rewind}. Yeah, it costs a bit much, but if you can afford it, you essentially counter for free. Pretty good in my book!
also you can't play emrakul in edh
Not quite correct, but close. Emrakul can be played in a deck, but not as your commander.
I'm throwing my vote in for {voidslime}. If bant, UG, etc., aren't your cup of green tea then it's kind of a niche spell but if you run those colors a lot like I do, it's a pretty versatile card.
Quote from: Langku on April 03, 2013, 10:11:48 PM
I'm throwing my vote in for {voidslime}. If bant, UG, etc., aren't your cup of green tea then it's kind of a niche spell but if you run those colors a lot like I do, it's a pretty versatile card.
Yeah!!
What's everyone's opinion on {Daze}? A poor man's FoW? Top 25?
Quote from: Xaol on April 04, 2013, 05:33:51 AM
What's everyone's opinion on {Daze}? A poor man's FoW? Top 25?
I think it's pretty good, as KangaRod said, you can't go wrong with free. I will, however, say that in general, I'm not a fan of "counter unless they pay this set amount" kind of cards. If I want something countered, I generally don't want to risk them being able to pay an extra mana or two to let it slide. I'll admit, I don't play counter spells as often as some others, so I'm no expert, but that's just my point of view. Why give them the option? In my mind, if I'm playing counters, its to take options away from them 😈
I love {Memory Lapse}. Duh.
Quote from: Harmon74 on April 04, 2013, 04:01:42 PM
I love {Memory Lapse}. Duh.
It's a slightly worse {Remand} :D I like that art.
Quote from: Xaol on April 04, 2013, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: Harmon74 on April 04, 2013, 04:01:42 PM
I love {Memory Lapse}. Duh.
It's a slightly worse {Remand} :D I like that art.
Better than remand IMO. You know what card they'll draw next turn. It's like making your opponent waste a turn. Or at least waste a draw step.
Quote from: Keyeto on April 04, 2013, 08:32:15 AM
Quote from: Xaol on April 04, 2013, 05:33:51 AM
What's everyone's opinion on {Daze}? A poor man's FoW? Top 25?
I think it's pretty good, as KangaRod said, you can't go wrong with free. I will, however, say that in general, I'm not a fan of "counter unless they pay this set amount" kind of cards. If I want something countered, I generally don't want to risk them being able to pay an extra mana or two to let it slide. I'll admit, I don't play counter spells as often as some others, so I'm no expert, but that's just my point of view. Why give them the option? In my mind, if I'm playing counters, its to take options away from them 😈
I love counterspells and I still agree with keyeto. Unless its a guaranteed turn 2 stymie ( {mana leak}😻 I'm looking at you) I feel like I'm giving my opponent an easy card advantage with counterable counterspells ( 😾{daze}, I'm looking at you).
Or just solve the whole problem and bring back {counterspell}!👹
I just read the Ice Age {counterspell} and I've never wanted to counter a {Zur the enchanter} so much in my life...lol
Quote from: KangaRod on April 05, 2013, 06:54:13 AM
{Counterspell} will never be printed in standard again for the simple reason that it is a bad idea to make cards that say "stop target player from playing magic" when your goal is to get target player to play magic.
It wouldn't be as big of a deal without {Snapcaster Mage} around, believe me. I played when it was around, and now that it isn't. The game favors aggro too much. "Tap 2, drop a 2 drop, swing." That isn't fun IMO, players should learn to not just curve into everything. Counterspells don't say "stop playing magic", it stalls the game so the control decks can get to the next level.
Bring back {Circular Logic} and {Complicate}
Quote from: KangaRod on April 07, 2013, 02:00:11 AM
Counter target spell basically equates to "stop target player from playing a spell." Since magic is a game where you cast spells, for all intents and purposes it stops someone from playing magic.
They are not fun to play against. Especially for a new player. When a creature gets smoked out by a combat trick, or by a removal spell it still is entering the battlefield and its still a much more enjoyable experience and therefore more psychologically rewarding experience.
Luckily the game isn't totally designed for new players. Counters have a place in the game, so do combat tricks, and everything else. Blue never got good creatures, so they always had to count in control magic. New Players feel that wrath effects are unfair and unfun. They believe counters are unfun, Land Destruction is unfun, discard is unfun, seemingly everything except big creatures are unfun. Mind control effects are unfair.
Anything that requires some planning, and some strategy to play around - that is unfun. Turn creatures sideways! That is a blast. Gimme a break.
In standard I say {Fall of the Gavel} an overall {Mana Drain}. But that render silent card looks amazing
Quote from: All-Mana Mania on April 07, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
In standard I say {Fall of the Gavel} an overall {Mana Drain}. But that render silent card looks amazing
You like a 5 cmc counter? What kind of deck sits around at 5 mana?
Quote from: Wackaman9001 on April 07, 2013, 03:41:24 PM
Quote from: All-Mana Mania on April 07, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
In standard I say {Fall of the Gavel} an overall {Mana Drain}. But that render silent card looks amazing
You like a 5 cmc counter? What kind of deck sits around at 5 mana?
It is 5 mana because you also gain 5 life. It helps through games and is a game changer. He has like aurelias fury and uses it all on you. Nope counter and 5 life. It always helps. I run it in my deck and won exactly like that lol
Eh I'd expect the effects to be a little more marvelous for it to be labeled a "game changer."
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on April 07, 2013, 03:57:41 PM
Eh I'd expect the effects to be a little more marvelous for it to be labeled a "game changer."
Honestly it is. You counter a spell and gain 5 life?!?! Pretty crazy lol
It's not really that great...cost too much. It's not really even good in limited.
Well i like it but also this is my 1,000th post
Congrats!
What do you think of white's counterpell, {Mana Tithe}? Few see it coming g when I side it in.
White gets taxing as counterspells.
Quote from: All-Mana Mania on April 07, 2013, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on April 07, 2013, 03:57:41 PM
Eh I'd expect the effects to be a little more marvelous for it to be labeled a "game changer."
Honestly it is. You counter a spell and gain 5 life?!?! Pretty crazy lol
I think {mystic genisis} is better than {fall of the gavel}, but that's not saying much. Lol
Quote from: KangaRod on April 07, 2013, 06:14:58 PM
Is there a 4 or 5 mana izzet counter?
Yes! {Essence Backlash}.
Quote from: All-Mana Mania on April 07, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
In standard I say {Fall of the Gavel} an overall {Mana Drain}. But that render silent card looks amazing
{Fall of the Gavel} is a hard sell. If I use it on an opponent's turn, it means I had to save all that mana and do nothing on my turn. If I cast it on my turn it means whatever spell he played made me burn up all my mana and I'll have nothing else I can do. Maybe in a commander game to turn a moment of defeat?
Quote from: KangaRod on April 08, 2013, 01:16:27 AM
Quote from: Xaol on April 07, 2013, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on April 07, 2013, 06:14:58 PM
Is there a 4 or 5 mana izzet counter?
Yes! {Essence Backlash}.
Wow if only it said target creature or player. No wonder it sees no play
LOL HAHAHAHA "Counter target creature or player"
I won a rtr prerelease with {Essence Backlash}
Quote from: Bozo_Law on April 08, 2013, 09:20:39 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on April 08, 2013, 01:16:27 AM
Quote from: Xaol on April 07, 2013, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on April 07, 2013, 06:14:58 PM
Is there a 4 or 5 mana izzet counter?
Yes! {Essence Backlash}.
Wow if only it said target creature or player. No wonder it sees no play
LOL HAHAHAHA "Counter target creature or player"
Sometimes I wish I could counter target player. :)