I've been seeing a lot of decks in here that really would find a better home in the Casual forum. If your deck is just for funzies/gimmicky that's great, but it doesn't belong in standard just because it plays standard cards. But it would be ridiculous to ask people to move their decks to the casual forum.
Instead I propose an idea that we have a competitive subforum devoted to the spikes of mtg. I know the overwhelming majority of people here play only with what their resources allow, but I think a refiner is necessary.
I second that
I agree a enjoy looking at people's competive decks and such it would be nice to have a subsection for the players that are more into the competitive aspect of the game. Would be nice to have a place to post those decks for advice from those people as well.
Not to be a Richard or 💩 on anyone's idea, but how hard is it to hit the back button if you click on a deck that isn't competitive?
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on March 11, 2013, 06:23:24 PM
Not to be a Richard or 💩 on anyone's idea, but how hard is it to hit the back button if you click on a deck that isn't competitive?
Well the idea is that we don't know which are competitive and which aren't. If there's a subforum for purely competitive decks then it's easier to see them and get good feedback
I partly agree, but there is one problem in that...
The problem is the definition itself... What is competitive deck...? Bcs also fanzies could be competitive...;)
Quote from: whitedrake on March 11, 2013, 06:50:18 PM
I partly agree, but there is one problem in that...
The problem is the definition itself... What is competitive deck...? Bcs also fanzies could be competitive...;)
okay so let's redefine it as a sub forum for competitive players. players who play consistently in FNM and go to events such as SCG or TCGPlayer events
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I would love this becase im trying to get into the competitive game once i have more time(and thus more $$$)
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I felt the same, but there is fun in taking a "net-deck", tweaking it to your FNM needs and bringing it to the table at your LGS. It's fun to play competitively for many people on the forum, and I for one would be glad to see a competitive subsection. We could talk about the current meta, how to beat this or that, how to prepare for FNM or the next big tourney. Plus, getting feedback on your competitive deck would be fantastic. Far too often to good decks get overlooked in the storm of decks flying through the standard section. A smaller subsection could be just what we need. I think it would be a good idea.
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I can agree with this. Most "competitive" decks seem to be net decks with a couple little modifications. There are plenty of competitive homebrews.
Im trying to be a competitive home brewer. I want to make my orzhov midrange feared all across the land een though its all goin to rotate out too soon
Quote from: Silent1236 on March 11, 2013, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I can agree with this. Most "competitive" decks seem to be net decks with a couple little modifications. There are plenty of competitive homebrews.
If the subforum isn't something you're interested in, then you can look at it as a place where all those net-deckers go to post and keep your part of the forum friendly to home-brewers. You can pop in occasionally to see what you might run into at the next FNM. I mean, there are plenty of good things that could come out of it (*cough* community competitive deck *cough*) but nothing that could HURT you or the standard forum. Why not give it a shot?
Quote from: Desolatus on March 11, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Silent1236 on March 11, 2013, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I can agree with this. Most "competitive" decks seem to be net decks with a couple little modifications. There are plenty of competitive homebrews.
If the subforum isn't something you're interested in, then you can look at it as a place where all those net-deckers go to post and keep your part of the forum friendly to home-brewers. You can pop in occasionally to see what you might run into at the next FNM. I mean, there are plenty of good things that could come out of it (*cough* community competitive deck *cough*) but nothing that could HURT you or the standard forum. Why not give it a shot?
Don't misunderstand me, I am not opposed to subdividing the standard forum, I am fine with it. I am opposed to having to choose between competitive, read net deck, and casual, read home brewed. I intend my home brews to be competitive AND home brewed. As a matter if fact I intend to continue to improve to the point I can home brew and beat most net decks. I am not being cocky, I just hope that with enough time and experience my skills will improve to the point I can do this. It might not happen but I have to have goals.
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: Desolatus on March 11, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Silent1236 on March 11, 2013, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I can agree with this. Most "competitive" decks seem to be net decks with a couple little modifications. There are plenty of competitive homebrews.
If the subforum isn't something you're interested in, then you can look at it as a place where all those net-deckers go to post and keep your part of the forum friendly to home-brewers. You can pop in occasionally to see what you might run into at the next FNM. I mean, there are plenty of good things that could come out of it (*cough* community competitive deck *cough*) but nothing that could HURT you or the standard forum. Why not give it a shot?
Don't misunderstand me, I am not opposed to subdividing the standard forum, I am fine with it. I am opposed to having to choose between competitive, read net deck, and casual, read home brewed. I intend my home brews to be competitive AND home brewed. As a matter if fact I intend to continue to improve to the point I can home brew and beat most net decks. I am not being cocky, I just hope that with enough time and experience my skills will improve to the point I can do this. It might not happen but I have to have goals.
My goal from the start! I have absurd amounts of ridiculous ideas that i could see being a force to reckon with if only i had the time/money/resources to play
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: Desolatus on March 11, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Silent1236 on March 11, 2013, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Bookmeister on March 11, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
I am very new to MTG but it sounds to me like what is being asked for is a forum for net decks and a forum for home brewed. It seems like most "competitive" decks are just slight variations on a theme. I don't like to play net decks because half of the fun I get is from brewing. I consider my decks competitive although I build them completely on my own. I am not very cpetitive yet but I hope someday to be good enough to build a deck that will be able to beat most net decks. Maybe I am dreaming because I just don't understand MTG well enough yet but this is my 2 cents.
I can agree with this. Most "competitive" decks seem to be net decks with a couple little modifications. There are plenty of competitive homebrews.
If the subforum isn't something you're interested in, then you can look at it as a place where all those net-deckers go to post and keep your part of the forum friendly to home-brewers. You can pop in occasionally to see what you might run into at the next FNM. I mean, there are plenty of good things that could come out of it (*cough* community competitive deck *cough*) but nothing that could HURT you or the standard forum. Why not give it a shot?
Don't misunderstand me, I am not opposed to subdividing the standard forum, I am fine with it. I am opposed to having to choose between competitive, read net deck, and casual, read home brewed. I intend my home brews to be competitive AND home brewed. As a matter if fact I intend to continue to improve to the point I can home brew and beat most net decks. I am not being cocky, I just hope that with enough time and experience my skills will improve to the point I can do this. It might not happen but I have to have goals.
The subforum could become, in part, a place to see how your home-brew matches up against the most competitive decks in standard. People can give you feedback on how to make your home-brew more suited to beat trouble matchups or what-have-you. Having a Casual standard for fun decks and the Competitive standard for Competitive decks could be what you need. It would honestly help you, as your competitive home-brew wouldn't have any trouble beating Fun, Gimmick-y decks, but it might against, say, Naya Aggro.
In no way do I think that the Competitive subforum should just be a bunch of netdecks. They would be there, but SERIOUS decks from competitive players would find a home more suited to them than the current Standard forum IMO.
You know what NO lol I'm a very competitive home brewer and I win FNM a lot with my home brewed decks every once in a while I'll make a modified net deck and if that part of the forums are going to be for competitive net decks well F da shiznit
Quote from: Seth5000 on March 11, 2013, 10:54:11 PM
You know what NO lol I'm a very competitive home brewer and I win FNM a lot with my home brewed decks every once in a while I'll make a modified net deck and if that part of the forums are going to be for competitive net decks well F da shiznit
You know, I have no idea what you mean by F da shiznit, but I did in the last post say that it could be a place for any competitive deck, not only net-decks. I don't know what you're upset about.
Mtgsalvation has a section like this already. It's a good idea. There competitive section is separated by established and developing decks. Established being decks already making waves and constantly placing in large events. I don't see this being hard to implement.
This idea has been brought up before, i believe i actually instigated this topic once. It seems the difficulty is truly in the definition. Here are some things to consider:
1. This section has the most activity of all the deck building sections.
2. That means people trying to get better can get the most help by posting here
3. Which in tun means many under developed decks and deckbuilders can be found here ("under developed" as seen by seasoned players)
4. 50-95% of so called competitive decks will appear close enough to a deck seen in major events and be passed off as a "net deck"
5. Patrick Chapin addresses the idea of net decking quite accurately in my opinion. He says in today's competitive seen the sharing of knowledge and shortened periods between major events encourages playing and tweaking a proven deck. This is because of a better known meta as well as limited time to learn the ins and outs of a deck let alone create or perfect a new archetype.
6. Homebrewing competitively is possible, my team and I are proof of that. It is however difficult and generally takes around a month of planning and reveiwing with games against 20-40 random decks (meaning you dont know what youre playing against before hand, so general archetypes in succession still count) as well as a multitude of hours put into solitaire and group testing to make a deck ready for high level events like PTQs and GPs. This process can be quickened with focused group testing whose members are seasoned and cohesive as a group.
7. From a moderator's perspective it may not be fair to newer players to shun them away from the eyes of the more competitive players theyre actually seeking advice from.
Clearly I now fall against a division. However I purpose and alternative.
Labels
My team decks that we deem worthy of competitve play all bare the preface "FNM" and my simple thoughts and creations do not. Some sort of encouraged labeling system similar to this or perhaps the more invasive option of moderator renaming like we do in the rules forum to ease searches would be more appropriate. Let me know what you think and I apologize if any of this steps on the toes of or does not consider what ever was posted as this was written.
Like I said I have no problem with this as long as I can post my home brewed competitive decks. I think I am getting a clearer idea and would support this.
It would just be netdecks with little tweaks, as many of us have stated. Now, if the posters would self-censor with nice prefixes like "FNM:" and "Budget:", that'd be great.
At one time, users frequently posted homebrew in the Casual forum, and Standard had a competitive connotation. Since BlackJester left, and no one gives help in casual, those decks have migrated over.
Quote from: Dudecore on March 11, 2013, 11:30:51 PM
It would just be netdecks with little tweaks, as many of us have stated. Now, if the posters would self-censor with nice prefixes like "FNM:" and "Budget:", that'd be great.
At one time, users frequently posted homebrew in the Casual forum, and Standard had a competitive connotation. Since BlackJester left, and no one gives help in casual, those decks have migrated over.
I know youve been a prefix fan all along, do you have suggestions for quick prifixes? Preferably only a few letters long.
Is there really no casual mod among us any more?
Prefixes are the way to go. "Com" for competitive, and "Fun" for just-for-fun decks. There could be more but those are the more obvious. Everybody wins.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on March 11, 2013, 11:34:17 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on March 11, 2013, 11:30:51 PM
It would just be netdecks with little tweaks, as many of us have stated. Now, if the posters would self-censor with nice prefixes like "FNM:" and "Budget:", that'd be great.
At one time, users frequently posted homebrew in the Casual forum, and Standard had a competitive connotation. Since BlackJester left, and no one gives help in casual, those decks have migrated over.
I know youve been a prefix fan all along, do you have suggestions for quick prifixes? Preferably only a few letters long.
Is there really no casual mod among us any more?
Maybe "FNM:" for those more casual FNM decks, and suffix "(Budget)" for budget decks? As mods our hands are kinda tied here. A user has to change the deck name in Deck builder and post willingly in the correct forum.
And no, I don't think we've got a casual moderator. This forum moves so quickly, I tried for some time to squash conversations and move banter, because it takes away from the decks. It is no hope. Standard is a machine that swallows men whole.
How about this?
FNM: competitive deck
PTQ: or GP: for major event decks
BDGT: budget build for competition
No prefix for basic ideas and more fun standard decks perhaps for friends or as a newer builder. I lean toward no prefix on these since new people will not likely be aware of the system and post without prefixs anyways.
This system would make finding a certain level of deck easy with the search function.
As mods we can at least recommend changes of mislabelled decks with an explaination on why it has been deemed mislabeled.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on March 11, 2013, 11:50:06 PM
How about this?
FNM: competitive deck
PTQ: or GP: for major event decks
BDGT: budget build for competition
No prefix for basic ideas and more fun standard decks perhaps for friends or as a newer builder. I lean toward no prefix on these since new people will not likely be aware of the system and post without prefixs anyways.
This system would make finding a certain level of deck easy with the search function.
As mods we can at least recommend changes of mislabelled decks with an explaination on why it has been deemed mislabeled.
What about disputes about homebrews that experience players deem un-FNM? Would these still not be overlooked? These decks require time and effort, which is why this system leans towards netdecks. Perhaps there could be an FNM-HB tag so people can decide whether they want to spend time on home brews or would rather stick with net deck. Thats the only qualm i have.
I think every one of these "challenge" decks should be moved to casual. I think anything budget should be casual also. But that is just me.
Then anyone looking in the casual forum would be like "how come this isn't in standard"? It is a no win. Maybe the competitive dudes should just usurp the "Other" forum and make it their own.
DC your disposition on standard makes it hard to take what youre saying to heart. However you superb past involvement completely balances it out. Im left fairly lost trying to decipher the undertone of standard hate from your great moderation skills.
As for the homebrew question, I believe that is where I come in. As a competitive homebrewer who was trained by competitive homebrewers and now has a team of competitive players equally skilled with a homebrew or a net deck I feel confident I know how to spot a competitive potential and detail what is missing in non competitive homebrews.
It isn't Standard hate. I'm actually just at a loss for what to do with this forum, or in which order users should be inconvenienced.
Should competitive players use tags like "GP" or "PTQ", or should budget players be using the tags?
Ideally, kitchen table stuff - even if it uses Standard format cards and rules - is casual. That is the way I see it. Budget is a grey area, and Challenge decks, while fun (and I've done many), strike me as casual.
With a fast moving forum like standard, it is important to delineate the type of decks, so the right people can find them and give em help. Before you know it, some good decks get buried without help.
I guess that the tags are a solution, I just feel like the Standard section will still feel cluttered. But C'est la Vie. Standard's always going to be cluttered. I'm willing to help the new system by following it and leading by example, since that's really all there is to do.
I personally like DC's idea to take Other and make it into a section for competitive only players. This way people know where to find solid fnm, ptq, and gp deck lists and still allowing players to post in standard their own ideas
Quote from: Wizardmook on March 13, 2013, 09:34:12 AM
Net deckers = Sheep
People play the game for different reasons. It's ignorant to say an entire group of people who are psychologically satisfied playing the same game as you, but differently, are worse. You should read this. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b)
Quote from: Dudecore on March 13, 2013, 10:41:37 AM
Quote from: Wizardmook on March 13, 2013, 09:34:12 AM
Net deckers = Sheep
People play the game for different reasons. It's ignorant to say an entire group of people who are psychologically satisfied playing the same game as you, but differently, are worse. You should read this. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b)
This ^
^ I disagree with your position. I've never seen anyone at a gp with headphones in ignoring their opponent. Net decking does draw some life out of the game but certain people enjoy winning above all else and taking a proven deck and slightly modifying it is more fun for them then it may be for you. I know when I played my friend's naya deck which he had built before it became a thing was incredibly fun because it steamrolled all the decks I played including his esper list. Now his list is much similar to naya of gp's and it is still fun to play. So it's all personal preference
People play this game for different reasons. The point of Timmy, Johnny and Spike is the way the designers of this game make cards and market this game to people. "Netdeckers" (Spikes) enjoy this game for different reasons, they like winning and they like the most effective and effecient cards. Spikes don't like Johnny or Timmy because they think those players are wasting their time.
Depending on which side of the spectrum you fall on - you don't like the other players on the other side. It's silly to argue about it. How do you convince someone to value the aspects of this game that they do not value?
My advice would be to post whatever you would like, and put tags in the title if you'd like - or don't. No forum rules explicitly state that you should do so, nor are they likely to ever exist. If netdeckers wanna post netdecks then do so.
I agree with the idea of "competitive" decks not really serving a purpose on this forum - but they most certainly could. I remember when I first started using this app I would often find a card I like in the Card Database, then scroll down and click "Commentary and Criticism" a view decks posted here.
I've play tested easily hundreds of decks from this community while I was lurking. But that was just me - I was netdecking using this forum. Other players like big combos, big creatures, inefficient cards with cool effects, <insert a myriad of other things>. If you feel like spikes ruin your experience playing - then you're playing for the wrong reasons. Playing for money and prizes will ALWAYS bring out people who are interested in those things; that isn't way YOU enjoy the game.
Quote from: Wizardmook on March 14, 2013, 03:11:35 PM
Don't get me wrong i like to see ideas in decks, which fires up my imagination to go to work on a deck. Just copying one because it won a GP is just lazy. Part of the fun is building, one of the reasons I like booster draft because no one can copy an exact draft deck because of too many variables. But if you want to waste money in a souless pursuit of trying to win GP or tourneys with countless other Exact copies of Jund etc be my guest. That's why I play mostly casual now as the games are far more entertaining and fun to see cards popping up in bizarre combos.
Its like you didnt even soak up what DC said hahah. You get joy out of building your own deck, others get joy out of winning and will do it with what is proven to win. Its not being lazy. They just want to win. Noting wrong with it. Like Potticus said in his example. You still have to know the ins and out of a deck, even if it is a net deck. That is in and of itself a craft you have to hone anyways. Personally I could do without net decks but I see that they definitely have their place in this game.
Net decking may do all things said above, however, think of this for a second.
I go to school fulltime
I am a fitefighter/emt working fulltime
I have my wife my daughter and two dogs
I also have my brothers aunts and uncles to see and be with
I have to work out constantly to keep my self fit for my carrier
I also have to do all the training and prep that my carrier requires
I work 24 hrs shifts simetimes 36 hrs
My days off are not necessary off
People like me just can afford the time ot tales to build a deck from scracht test it play it fix it.
Quote from: Jacetherican on March 14, 2013, 04:11:40 PM
Net decking may do all things said above, however, think of this for a second.
I go to school fulltime
I am a fitefighter/emt working fulltime
I have my wife my daughter and two dogs
I also have my brothers aunts and uncles to see and be with
I have to work out constantly to keep my self fit for my carrier
I also have to do all the training and prep that my carrier requires
I work 24 hrs shifts simetimes 36 hrs
My days off are not necessary off
People like me just can afford the time ot tales to build a deck from scracht test it play it fix it.
While it's true net decking is useful for those whose schedules are busy, sometimes home brewing is as simple as thinking of an idea and writing it down. Then you can always start building the list later. I don't know about you guys but I tend to do my best homebrewing in the bathroom... it's the place where I get the most time to think and explore new ideas