Ok just want to get people's opinion. When is your trade considered complete. Is it when you agree on terms? When you receive your cards? When you put them in the mail?
When both sides have recieved the cards.
You already know my opinion, but for here:
When you agree on terms that should be it. When its in the mail its absolutely final. Some will say when its in the mail its complete, but once you agree on terms on both ends most people dont respond back until they let you know its in the mail. Most times you arent going to catch the person if you change your mind before they have already mailed it.
I can see in the mail, but once terms are settled for me that should be it.
EDIT: For others to understand. The trade isnt technically "complete" until both people receive their cards. Some people send first and regardless you are keeping in contact to let them know the status and so forth.
BUT, for purposes of making changes to the trade, my initial post stands. Once you agree and say your mailing it, that should be it on that end.
For me, once addresses have been exchanged and both parties agree to the trade.
^^ that's when the deal is finalized. Trade isn't complete until both ends receive. (Obviously)
In my opinion the trade is complete when both parties receive their cards.
That being said though, once addresses are exchanged, I deem that to be a final agreement.
Of course until mailing, if both parties are in contact I'm agree terms could be changed. But once one side is in the mail, the deal is done.
Brings to mind that thread about somebody changing the deal because of Thrun price increase even though one party had sent cards already. At that point, deal is made.
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=2605.0
"A Trade is considered complete when both parties have received the agreed upon goods."
Quote from: Dudecore on March 02, 2013, 05:42:38 PM
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=2605.0
"A Trade is considered complete when both parties have received the agreed upon goods."
Nuff said...
To add IMO, the "agreed upon goods" are final when addresses are exchanged.
Of course it could be changed later but that's something to be discussed by both parties.
Quote from: Hays413 on March 02, 2013, 05:41:11 PM
In my opinion the trade is complete when both parties receive their cards.
That being said though, once addresses are exchanged, I deem that to be a final agreement.
Of course until mailing, if both parties are in contact I'm agree terms could be changed. But once one side is in the mail, the deal is done.
Brings to mind that thread about somebody changing the deal because of Thrun price increase even though one party had sent cards already. At that point, deal is made.
Exactly this. Both parties have to receive their trades, but you cant change the deal after the agreement is done and cards are mailed.
Quote from: Dudecore on March 02, 2013, 05:42:38 PM
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=2605.0
"A Trade is considered complete when both parties have received the agreed upon goods."
this
Oof. Negging on an agreement (even if its before either side has sent) is bad tact. I've lost out on trade values because I finalized a trade agreement and a day or two later, BAM! Spike in value. Did I choose to be a Richard about it and pull out? No. That's just the nature of the beast. I probably wouldn't want to trade again with someone who does that. Shinfo.
Changing terms of an agreement is in poor taste. It's violating iMtG as well, agreements must be kept. If you wish to push the issue.
No one can force anyone else to send the cards out, you just simply don't have to trade with that person anymore. As long as you got your cards back then no harm done.
Not trading cards because of a price spike is just stupid. Prices fluctuate all of the time. I've traded for a {Thrun, the Last Troll} months before the price spike, but neither me nor the trader have control over it.
TL;DR - it's in poor taste. Just don't trade with them anymore.
I don't really understand all this. You agree upon a trade and send out, and you don't own those cards anymore. I'm not gonna go message someone and say "hey, I decided I'm going to build a new deck, so send my {Falkenrath Aristocrat} back." That's kinda the same with price. If I bought a thrun off of scg, and then the price shot up the next day, I'm not going to get an email from scg asking for it back. This all seems a little childish honestly. You agreed upon a trade, you sent it out, just leave it at that. If the price shoots up, your SOL. Don't cry about losing the value.
Tl;dr - Don't be a douche! It makes you look childish and it's an easy way to lose friends ;)
And why do we need two threads on this topic?
I hijacked the original topic that's why I started this one.
If comparing it to stc games or other dealers they have a page on this where the say all prices are subject to change without notice. Where they can change the price and notify you if you want to pay the extra cost or cancel your order.
I also wanted to see what people think on this topic. Trading in person bam deals done. But now having to wait and seeing the market change does have an effect on the time it takes to change hands of cards. This is where I can see hard feelings on both sides.
Quote from: Silent1236 on March 02, 2013, 07:21:15 PM
I don't really understand all this. You agree upon a trade and send out, and you don't own those cards anymore. I'm not gonna go message someone and say "hey, I decided I'm going to build a new deck, so send my {Falkenrath Aristocrat} back." That's kinda the same with price. If I bought a thrun off of scg, and then the price shot up the next day, I'm not going to get an email from scg asking for it back. This all seems a little childish honestly. You agreed upon a trade, you sent it out, just leave it at that. If the price shoots up, your SOL. Don't cry about losing the value.
Tl;dr - Don't be a douche! It makes you look childish and it's an easy way to lose friends ;)
And why do we need two threads on this topic?
Your missing a key component, he did not have my Thrun in hand, that trade had not yet been completed. My cards hadn't even been sent yet. I opted for a reconsideration or if he would simply like me to send back his cards that he was sending me.
It is what it is, the Trade has been scrapped and he's recieving his cards back.
Inconvenient is the word here
Quote from: KangaRod on March 02, 2013, 08:17:57 PM
Wow you agreed on a trade and exchanged addresses and then scrapped it?
Poor form. There was a couple of times that my IRL trade binder didn't match the iMTG binder when I went to get it out, those times I contacted the party I was trading with and have them two options
1) I would go to the store and purchase the cards to make the original trade
2) was there anything else they wanted In lieu.
Once you've agreed and exchanged addresses, that's it. Done deal.
I don't know how you can justify 'changing your mind' after the fact, without amicable dismissal (also something that happened with me on here once) - a deal is a deal.
You should send him his {Thrun, the Last Troll} that he traded for.
I think he's pretty done with it, he said to scrap the deal after I asked for a reconsideration of a possible placeholder or Thrun or whether he'd simply just want the Foundries sent back
Thrun was not flying Solo, he was part of a bulk trade that added up to about $24, he was a $4-5 card at the time. I don't see how asking for another $4 placeholder is much trouble.
Quote from: KangaRod on March 02, 2013, 08:27:08 PM
Well, if it was amicable then it's not bad. I was under the impression that you were holding his {Thrun, the Last Troll} ransom.
If you asked him to scrap the trade and he said ok that's fine, then it's ok, and definitely something I don't see as a moral issue.
If you said "hey lets scrap the trade?" And he said no, then you gotta go through with it.
I am still willing to finish the trade with another placeholder, but I know he wants his Foundries back. I just hate how people are misinterpreting this. I asked for reconsideration of our trades or whether he would just like the Foundries back and he said "Scrap the deal", so I am.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 02, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on March 02, 2013, 08:27:08 PM
Well, if it was amicable then it's not bad. I was under the impression that you were holding his {Thrun, the Last Troll} ransom.
If you asked him to scrap the trade and he said ok that's fine, then it's ok, and definitely something I don't see as a moral issue.
If you said "hey lets scrap the trade?" And he said no, then you gotta go through with it.
I am still willing to finish the trade with another placeholder, but I know he wants his Foundries back. I just hate how people are misinterpreting this. I asked for reconsideration of our trades or whether he would just like the Foundries back and he said "Scrap the deal", so I am.
I am not Nissa so I cant answer for him, but if you only gave him the option of reconsidering or you sending back his cards, thats wrong. He should have the option to say no and you still send the card. You made the deal and it should be fulfilled. If you gave him all THREE options and he said scrap it, thats fine. If you didnt, not cool. Thats the point thats trying to be made here.
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 02, 2013, 09:02:37 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 02, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on March 02, 2013, 08:27:08 PM
Well, if it was amicable then it's not bad. I was under the impression that you were holding his {Thrun, the Last Troll} ransom.
If you asked him to scrap the trade and he said ok that's fine, then it's ok, and definitely something I don't see as a moral issue.
If you said "hey lets scrap the trade?" And he said no, then you gotta go through with it.
I am still willing to finish the trade with another placeholder, but I know he wants his Foundries back. I just hate how people are misinterpreting this. I asked for reconsideration of our trades or whether he would just like the Foundries back and he said "Scrap the deal", so I am.
I am not Nissa so I cant answer for him, but if you only gave him the option of reconsidering or you sending back his cards, thats wrong. He should have the option to say no and you still send the card. You made the deal and it should be fulfilled. If you gave him all THREE options and he said scrap it, thats fine. If you didnt, not cool. Thats the point thats trying to be made here.
First you said if I had sent the Thrun already it's too late to back out, okay, I did not. And now your saying it's still wrong? The Thrun alone now is worth a Foundry. I had stuff in that trade that I would normally never trade away but I needed the Foundries for my girlfriends Boros Humans, even still, I would rather not give away cards. If it'll make everyone happy I'll give him the damn Thrun AS WELL as the Foundries. I'm sick of this topic. I don't see why everyone is gettin so upset over it. By him getting his Foundries back, which was again, HIS choice, he loses a stamp and an envelope. And 4 weeks without 2 Foundries, that's saying they arrive soon, his cards take some time to arrive, which I'm not faulting him at all, the postal datestamp on his envelopes show that he had indeed sent out on time, they simply took some time to arrive. Yes, inconvenient, but I'm not a con artist or a scammer, I just hate losing card value. At this point it's like I'm trading for someone's cards out of a Pack to Power Nine Binder.
Point of this thread is to see what people think on trades not to single anyone out. I was hopefully trying to have a civil discussion to see what ideas people have. This will be an issue and if we can nip it at the bud. If a good decision could be made and added to the trade section to prevent hard feelings in the future on either side
I didnt say if you sent the Thrun out. Thats irrelevant as you already agreed to the terms and he sent his end.
I was never intentionally trying to blow this topic up the way it has or piss anybody off and I'm a bit sorry for that, but I do stand my ground on the fact that if anyone in any trade agrees to it and they exchange addresses to send the cards, the deal is done and you cant change it unless the other trader says its cool. I cant make you send him the deal, I cant force you to do anything and I dont want to come off as a jerk as we've never had a problem before, but for anyone trading it should be known that if you agree on a deal you cant just back out of it without certain ramifications, whether that be people ticked off at you or negative stigma with the community.
This is Magic. Card prices fluctuate all over the place. People buy cards with their hard earned money and then the prices drop and they lose money value wise. It happens. It can happen in your favor too. Such is life.
We all like Magic here, we all should get along and be civil. I am of the opinion with the majority of people, that once you agree on a trade and say your sending it, you should. Thats the right thing to do. If you dont want to, nobody can make you, but you cant deny that people will be less willing to deal with traders that do that.
This stirred some thought. First of all, I really have no problem with Infinitive. We had a successful trade, a small one, it took some time and was completed. I certainly would NEVER consider him to be anything other than a decent guy. The issue I do have is a most recent trade with him where terms were changed when my cards were en route. Here is what happened:
On February 15 we agreed to the following terms and exchanged addresses, both agreeing to send right away. The deal included a Thrun, The Last Troll.
First of all, at 7:38:37 PM of the same day I quote him as follows: "I'll be sending first thing Monday. I'm gonna be sending in a bubble mailer because its about 20 cards"
On February 23 he admitted to not sending the cards out, stating "I'll send my end out as soon as they arrive and not a moment later"
To say that I was irate was an understatement. I'd been checking the mail every day. We agreed to send and he even verified how and when they would be going out. I was treated to a "send first" deal, with terms being something quite different.
Now as far as Thrun is concerned, we had a deal. A gentleman's agreement. On 07:09:22 of Feb 25 he advised me that Thrun's price had increased. Nothing more. Nothing less. On Feb 27 04:59:40 he reminded me again that Thrun had gone up. I was excited and happy to have dealt for the card. Now I was waiting to get it and as you can imagine, a little giddy.
On the same dat at 05:25:04 I was given the options to reconsider or he would return my Foundries!
I naturally stated "scrap the deal" as I was simply disgusted and I know everyone can understand why.
That is all.
I asked for a send after simply because I had yet to receive the first trade at all, and it seemed as if there were quite a few members on here that were still waiting on cards from you, and it was taking quite a lot longer than it should have. As I also stated to you, I did not want to get ripped off again and from the looks of it it was happening to more than just me, I was insuring myself. Upon recieving your first trade I reassured a few members on here that you were indeed a trustworthy guy and then the Thrun jump happened. It was a mix of insecurity and awareness on my part, like I said, I don't like losing card value if I can help it. If it's any difference, and also to not tarnish my reputation, I am willing to complete the original trade. I have not received the foundries, but I'll send out your end, because I do still need the lands. That is if you are still willing to do so.
And now that I've read comments a little further, I want to clarify again.
The cards I sent were Foundries. Highly sought after cards with almost triple the value he mentioned in this thread. Thrun was part of a bulk deal. He lied about sending me the cards and I was NOT given the option to keep the deal as is. It was a" take it or leave it" term given to me. As a matter of fact, I'm so disgusted, keep the Foundries as a gift Infinitive. It's one thing to have poor class and not be a man of your word and it's another to flat out lie. If anyone doubts the truth of what I'm saying, I'll gladly quote everything that was said to me. Maybe the Mods can read my inbox?
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 02, 2013, 10:02:39 PM
And now that I've read comments a little further, I want to clarify again.
The cards I sent were Foundries. Highly sought after cards with almost triple the value he mentioned in this thread. Thrun was part of a bulk deal. He lied about sending me the cards and I was NOT given the option to keep the deal as is. It was a" take it or leave it" term given to me. As a matter of fact, I'm so disgusted, keep the Foundries as a gift Infinitive. It's one thing to have poor class and not be a man of your word and it's another to flat out lie. If anyone doubts the truth of what I'm saying, I'll gladly quote everything that was said to me. Maybe the Mods can read my inbox?
I never said I sent you the cards, and I never said that I gave you the option to keep the deal as it was. I asked if you would reconsider our trade, or if you would like for me to send back the lands. I think your misreading the comments
The plot thickens!
In Nissas defense, he did keep your name annonymous, and from what I could tell, had no intentions of putting you on blast in the first place. You came forward and admitted to being the one his original post was about.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 02, 2013, 10:01:25 PM
I asked for a send after simply because I had yet to receive the first trade at all, and it seemed as if there were quite a few members on here that were still waiting on cards from you, and it was taking quite a lot longer than it should have. As I also stated to you, I did not want to get ripped off again and from the looks of it it was happening to more than just me, I was insuring myself. Upon recieving your first trade I reassured a few members on here that you were indeed a trustworthy guy and then the Thrun jump happened. It was a mix of insecurity and awareness on my part, like I said, I don't like losing card value if I can help it. If it's any difference, and also to not tarnish my reputation, I am willing to complete the original trade. I have not received the foundries, but I'll send out your end, because I do still need the lands. That is if you are still willing to do so.
The saddest part of all of this, is that members are putting their faith in getting reassurance from someone who lies and backtracks on deals! AMAZING! Sure, send the cards out. I could really care less. It is after all, what you said you were going to do WEEKS AGO!
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 02, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 02, 2013, 10:02:39 PM
And now that I've read comments a little further, I want to clarify again.
The cards I sent were Foundries. Highly sought after cards with almost triple the value he mentioned in this thread. Thrun was part of a bulk deal. He lied about sending me the cards and I was NOT given the option to keep the deal as is. It was a" take it or leave it" term given to me. As a matter of fact, I'm so disgusted, keep the Foundries as a gift Infinitive. It's one thing to have poor class and not be a man of your word and it's another to flat out lie. If anyone doubts the truth of what I'm saying, I'll gladly quote everything that was said to me. Maybe the Mods can read my inbox?
I never said I sent you the cards, and I never said that I gave you the option to keep the deal as it was. I asked if you would reconsider our trade, or if you would like for me to send back the lands. I think your misreading the comments
Dude, I quoted you word for word! Please mods check my inbox! OMG. This is fantastic!
Nissa, is this necessary now? I was pointing out how trades should be done. All this personal stuff should be done in pms. He also said he'd complete the trade, no need to come off like that. Lets be civil......at tee very least.
People have a right to know the truth and I have a right to defend against lies. I can't apologize for my comments and I'm certain that many members agree.
Mods can't check your inbox, nor would we. Handle this like adults. Trade at your own risk and do not trade what you cannot afford to lose. /end
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 02, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 02, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 02, 2013, 10:02:39 PM
And now that I've read comments a little further, I want to clarify again.
The cards I sent were Foundries. Highly sought after cards with almost triple the value he mentioned in this thread. Thrun was part of a bulk deal. He lied about sending me the cards and I was NOT given the option to keep the deal as is. It was a" take it or leave it" term given to me. As a matter of fact, I'm so disgusted, keep the Foundries as a gift Infinitive. It's one thing to have poor class and not be a man of your word and it's another to flat out lie. If anyone doubts the truth of what I'm saying, I'll gladly quote everything that was said to me. Maybe the Mods can read my inbox?
I never said I sent you the cards, and I never said that I gave you the option to keep the deal as it was. I asked if you would reconsider our trade, or if you would like for me to send back the lands. I think your misreading the comments
Dude, I quoted you word for word! Please mods check my inbox! OMG. This is fantastic!
If you're referring to the fact that I did not send out when I said I would, the yes, you're right on that part, but never did I say that you could have the option of keeping the deal as it originally was. Which is why Nyghthawk was saying that regardless, a gentlemens agreement should be upheld, and that I should have gave you that option.
All I'm saying is that I don't see what lies you are saying I commited, other than the fact that I did not send out my end when I said I would, which I already told you had happened
I had a similar situation with {Boros Reckoner}s when they shot up. I ended up letting the guy off for the deal but only because I thought he wouldn't mail them and because he threw in a few freebies.
But once cards are mailed, or you "say" they are mailed then they are as good as traded. Ask yourself this. If you were dealing with a new trader who agreed to send first and did, would you alter the deal before sending out your end if prices change??
I'll say no more on the issue. Resolved.
You've both been members long enough, I recommend you hash it out privately. No reason this has to work out poorly for either of you.
Seconding Dudecore. It is far beyond any control we as Mods have now and also not anyone's else's business.
Wow i came into this thread thinking i could learn something about trading on imtg and came away thinking maybe its not such a great idea.
I hope the best of luck to you both.
Quote from: Barzini on March 03, 2013, 12:27:44 AM
Wow i came into this thread thinking i could learn something about trading on imtg and came away thinking maybe its not such a great idea.
I hope the best of luck to you both.
There are many successful trades every day here.
I'm curious, can you have tracked mail returned to you if you request it?
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 03, 2013, 12:38:33 AM
I'm curious, can you have tracked mail returned to you if you request it?
EDIT:
You can, but only domestic it appears.
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 12:43:24 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 03, 2013, 12:38:33 AM
I'm curious, can you have tracked mail returned to you if you request it?
You cannot.
Well now that is very interesting.
Nissa sent this to me about an hour ago:
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 02, 2013, 10:49:18 PM
By the way, because I was fearful that you would not send my Foundries back and I may be in the middle of some scam, I contacted Canada Post to return my item to sender as its tracking status was still "in transit". Last location was waiting for clearance at customs. So, i'll now have to resend them, at my expense, which is also unfair.
I don't think his end was even sent either, I've asked for a tracking number to confirm this. If it is indeed true, then I'll drop this once and for all, I just want to make sure that he even sent his
I dont know how the Canadian post works.
You can intercept mail with USPS. Just found that out. But only for domestic shipping. If Canada is the same and it was still in Canada, I guess he could do it. You could ask him for the tracking number to see yourself what is going on with the package.
If either of you send and you feel the need, get tracking numbers so you both can see where everything is.
I had this resolved as per advice from dude core and nyghthawk. However, it appears that a proven liar, a person not true to his word, Infinitive, buried beneath a stack of his own deception and shame, is attempting a role reversal. Unlike Infinitive, I held true to word and sent my cards. When he ripped me off, I did as he suggested and got my cards back. I owe him nothing but what I told him in a PM, which was to say "please don't contact me again". I apologize for having to come back to this thread when I was doing what I was asked to do, solve with PM's.
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:29:09 AM
I had this resolved as per advice from dude core and nyghthawk. However, it appears that a proven liar, a person not true to his word, Infinitive, buried beneath a stack of his own deception and shame, is attempting a role reversal. Unlike Infinitive, I held true to word and sent my cards. When he ripped me off, I did as he suggested and got my cards back. I owe him nothing but what I told him in a PM, which was to say "please don't contact me again". I apologize for having to come back to this thread when I was doing what I was asked to do, solve with PM's.
I just want people to see both sides of the story. Give me the tracking number and I'll drop it. I just want to know if you even sent your end. Whatever dude, mods please delete this stupid thread.
How is there two sides? You ADMITTED to lying and reneging. Acting in a doochery fashion, bringing this back to the forum, and just being a classless shamed fool. Send the deal ASAP and you won't be classed as ericlay was.
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:36:15 AM
How is there two sides? You ADMITTED to lying and reneging. Acting in a doochery fashion, bringing this back to the forum, and just being a classless shamed fool. Send the deal ASAP and you won't be classed as ericlay was.
Don't ever compare me to him, I already told you to keep your lands, I don't feel like waiting a month. I just think that if you indeed did not send your end either than all of this was completely pointless to explode over
As a matter of fact, because Infinitive admitted to breaking forum law by LYING I ask for punishment.
Guys can we please just stop arguing?
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:39:02 AM
As a matter of fact, because Infinitive admitted to breaking forum law by LYING I ask for punishment.
What do you propose as punishment?
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 06:31:42 AM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:39:02 AM
As a matter of fact, because Infinitive admitted to breaking forum law by LYING I ask for punishment.
What do you propose as punishment?
I propose that he fork over the tracking number to prove that he's not lying about even sending his end himself, according to the Canadian Post Office, once an item has reached customs, neither side can do anything to retrieve it.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 03, 2013, 07:01:51 AM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 06:31:42 AM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:39:02 AM
As a matter of fact, because Infinitive admitted to breaking forum law by LYING I ask for punishment.
What do you propose as punishment?
I propose that he fork over the tracking number to prove that he's not lying about even sending his end himself, according to the Canadian Post Office, once an item has reached customs, neither side can do anything to retrieve it.
That is a different matter, you lied about sending and you didn't keep the agreement. Your motives are irrelevant.
I propose a possible burn at the stake? :0
I try to keep a level head about things and I obviously was one who dealt with the Ericlay situation. This isnt the same. Infinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
According to one person, he did. I understand the actions that were taken against ericlay because there was no denying that he was trying to rip people off and blatantly lying to them. But this is completely different. While what infinitive did was arguably douchey, I don't know if I would motion to subject him to punishment. It seems extreme. I've had interactions with infinitive, although we haven't ever actually traded yet, and he seems like a good guy. Just throwing in my two cents, feel free to throw them right back at me. 😁
I think Infinitive broke a deal and that is breaking the law (do not lie). What Nissa did or didn't do afterwards doesn't change the fact that infinitive reneged on an agreement. I have a lot of respect for Infinitive as a long time member but this reflects poorly on him. If someone says they'll do something they should follow through regardless of whether or not it profits them. Suggesting an alternate deal after making an agreement was in poor form. I can recognize that both Infinitive and Nissa are frustrated but Infinitive broke the deal.
I suggest a banned list for traders who break a deal. Or a battle in Thunderdome. 2 men enter, 1 man leaves. Either option seems reasonable.
I'd give Infinitive the benefit of the doubt since there is no precedence for this (that I'm aware of...).
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
He didn't send the cards the day he told nissa he was going to and he tried to renegotiate the deal. That was in poor taste imo. When it was brought to light here, he said he would make it right. If he does so, I don't see it necessary to crucify him. Was it right? No. Like I said, poor decisions. He wasn't going anywhere though and if he makes it right I would think lesson learned and the community will understand that you don't try to renegotiate a deal after its been finalized and addresses exchanged.
That should be part of the trade law and clear.
Quote from: KangaRod on March 03, 2013, 03:26:53 AM
There is not an economical way to track a package shipped from Canada to the US.
I don't see how that is pertinent. If you didn't ship your cards when you said you would, that's lying, and dishonest.
Is that what happened?
It is exactly what happened.
As recommended, I tried to handle this using PM but was constantly brought back to the thread. As far as forum law is concerned, there is a very clear message regarding lying and Infinitive without a doubt lied to me. I don't know what constitutes as punishment but letting it slide because he's a longer standing member does not send a good message to anyone. I attempted to resolve by requesting that we just send our parts of the agreed upon deal last night and was told to keep my cards and he'd send me a Thrun to "shut me up" and that I was win-win. Again, I disagree, as this was not the AGREED upon deal. I lose the other cards he agreed to trade me. No matter what, Infinitive is insistent that this not go down in a fair manner. I also believe that he's been around long enough to know that this whole thing is in very poor taste. I apologize for being harsh but I did not call him out or mention his name until another member advised me that he brought this issue to light and continued to do so after nyghthawk and dude core recommended we handle through PM, which I did and he did not.
Quote from: Moneekahh on March 03, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
According to one person, he did.
According to evidence, including his own statements, did or did not he break the law?
Quote from: Moneekahh on March 03, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
I understand the actions that were taken against ericlay because there was no denying that he was trying to rip people off and blatantly lying to them. But this is completely different. While what infinitive did was arguably douchey, I don't know if I would motion to subject him to punishment. It seems extreme.
I wasn't asking you about the punishment, as this is logically a domain of the victim, I was merely asking whether the law was broken. This question has only two answers and both are extreme ;)
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: Moneekahh on March 03, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
According to one person, he did.
According to evidence, including his own statements, did or did not he break the law?
Quote from: Moneekahh on March 03, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
I understand the actions that were taken against ericlay because there was no denying that he was trying to rip people off and blatantly lying to them. But this is completely different. While what infinitive did was arguably douchey, I don't know if I would motion to subject him to punishment. It seems extreme.
I wasn't asking you about the punishment, as this is logically a domain of the victim, I was merely asking whether the law was broken. This question has only two answers and both are extreme ;)
I must have missed the post where he said he lied. He did break the law. :(
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 01:21:48 PM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on March 03, 2013, 09:15:08 AMInfinitive wasnt trying to disappear or steal cards, he just made a poor decision(s) in my opinion.
Did he break the law?
He didn't send the cards the day he told nissa he was going to and he tried to renegotiate the deal. That was in poor taste imo. When it was brought to light here, he said he would make it right. If he does so, I don't see it necessary to crucify him. Was it right? No. Like I said, poor decisions. He wasn't going anywhere though and if he makes it right I would think lesson learned and the community will understand that you don't try to renegotiate a deal after its been finalized and addresses exchanged.
That should be part of the trade law and clear.
This is not clear to me. Did he break the law?
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
As recommended, I tried to handle this using PM but was constantly brought back to the thread. As far as forum law is concerned, there is a very clear message regarding lying and Infinitive without a doubt lied to me. I don't know what constitutes as punishment (...).
Whom do you delegate your punishment rights to?
EDIT: Punishment, according to iMtG Law, must be logical.
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
As recommended, I tried to handle this using PM but was constantly brought back to the thread. As far as forum law is concerned, there is a very clear message regarding lying and Infinitive without a doubt lied to me. I don't know what constitutes as punishment (...).
Whom do you delegate your punishment rights to?
EDIT: Punishment, according to iMtG Law, must be logical.
He admitted in this thread that he lied about sending his end of the deal. He changed the sending terms without any notice. I checked the mail for weeks and was told eventually that he'd not sent his end and on top of it, wanted the renegotiate the deal because of Thrun's new pricing. As far as trying to change terms after everything was agreed upon, I'm not sure if it breaks law or is just classless. I would hope you make a decision here.
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
As recommended, I tried to handle this using PM but was constantly brought back to the thread. As far as forum law is concerned, there is a very clear message regarding lying and Infinitive without a doubt lied to me. I don't know what constitutes as punishment (...).
Whom do you delegate your punishment rights to?
EDIT: Punishment, according to iMtG Law, must be logical.
He admitted in this thread that he lied about sending his end of the deal. He changed the sending terms without any notice. I checked the mail for weeks and was told eventually that he'd not sent his end and on top of it, wanted the renegotiate the deal because of Thrun's new pricing. As far as trying to change terms after everything was agreed upon, I'm not sure if it breaks law or is just classless. I would hope you make a decision here.
As a potential victim you already stated that he is guilty, I merely asked you about punishment you would like to see dealt. Do you want to do it yourself or delegate it to me or anyone else?
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 02:35:40 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: Nissassagame on March 03, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
As recommended, I tried to handle this using PM but was constantly brought back to the thread. As far as forum law is concerned, there is a very clear message regarding lying and Infinitive without a doubt lied to me. I don't know what constitutes as punishment (...).
Whom do you delegate your punishment rights to?
EDIT: Punishment, according to iMtG Law, must be logical.
He admitted in this thread that he lied about sending his end of the deal. He changed the sending terms without any notice. I checked the mail for weeks and was told eventually that he'd not sent his end and on top of it, wanted the renegotiate the deal because of Thrun's new pricing. As far as trying to change terms after everything was agreed upon, I'm not sure if it breaks law or is just classless. I would hope you make a decision here.
As a potential victim you already stated that he is guilty, I merely asked you about punishment you would like to see dealt. Do you want to do it yourself or delegate it to me or anyone else?
I would delegate to you Piotr. As far as making a decision on what it should be, I would rather put that to someone like yourself who has a better idea on what is fitting.
To me, -20 karma is fitting. Happy?
By iMtG law I find InfinitiveDivinity guilty of lying and breach of contract.
I punish InfinitiveDivinity with 20 negative karma.
InfinitiveDivinity is not guilty, case closed.
Quote from: Piotr on March 03, 2013, 04:43:58 PM
InfinitiveDivinity is not guilty, case closed.
This does in no way prevent you from opening another case, such as 'you vs. judge'.
Be aware that false accusation is a rather bad form of lying.