If {Stolen Identity} is cast, and targeted a creature that is in response destroyed, can the card still Cipher to a creature?
Cipher does not target. You make the decision to encode it when the ability resolves. The creature would have to be destroyed after it was already encoded.
The only way I can conceive in my tipsy half asleep state is by by using the stack to destroy the creature this card targets in the first place. Other than that, I believe te term MaRo uses is "it's stating something that is true" ... Or am I rambling. Lol
No cipher without a legal target for the actual effect. The whole spell would fizzel without a legal target to allow it to resolve.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on January 26, 2013, 09:38:04 AM
No cipher without a legal target for the actual effect. The whole spell would fizzel without a legal target to allow it to resolve.
The WHOLE spell wouldn't fizzle because of a failed cipher. The cipher happens after the spell resolves. Upon cipher resolution, you choose a target and you may cipher it. If you do, you exile the card.
Quote from: TBNL on January 26, 2013, 04:13:26 AM
If {Stolen Identity} is cast, and targeted a creature that is in response destroyed, can the card still Cipher to a creature?
I think tyat the original poster is asking: if a cypher card fizzles, can you still cypher it? Like if you cast {Stolen Identity} on {Gravecrawler}, and in response your opponent kills the gravecrawler, making the stolen identity fizzle. The OP is asking if the spell can still cypher.
Although cypher is not out yet, and we have no completely official rules on it, I think the answer is no. If the spell fizzles, you may not cypher it. Cypher is part of the whole spell. If the spell has no legal target, it can't resolve.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on January 26, 2013, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: TBNL on January 26, 2013, 04:13:26 AM
If {Stolen Identity} is cast, and targeted a creature that is in response destroyed, can the card still Cipher to a creature?
I think tyat the original poster is asking: if a cypher card fizzles, can you still cypher it? Like if you cast {Stolen Identity} on {Gravecrawler}, and in response your opponent kills the gravecrawler, making the stolen identity fizzle. The OP is asking if the spell can still cypher.
Although cypher is not out yet, and we have no completely official rules on it, I think the answer is no. If the spell fizzles, you may not cypher it. Cypher is part of the whole spell. If the spell has no legal target, it can't resolve.
Aside from the fact it's a waste of a spell I don't think so, the fact that the rules text begins "then" seems like a continuation of the spell
If the spell loses it's initial target it fizzels. If you {last kiss} a dude and the dude gets bounced out of the way YOU DONT GAIN LIFE. If you cant do the first part of a spell you cant do the second part of it either.
If a spell has no more legal targets when it tries to resolve, it is countered.
It is a new mechanic though so until release I feel that all doubts have a little ground. Just about to leave to the prerelease myself, wish me luck! :)
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on January 26, 2013, 05:30:37 PM
If a spell has no more legal targets when it tries to resolve, it is countered.
It is a new mechanic though so until release I feel that all doubts have a little ground. Just about to leave to the prerelease myself, wish me luck! :)
Cipher is not a spell. It's an ability.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on January 26, 2013, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: TBNL on January 26, 2013, 04:13:26 AM
If {Stolen Identity} is cast, and targeted a creature that is in response destroyed, can the card still Cipher to a creature?
I think tyat the original poster is asking: if a cypher card fizzles, can you still cypher it? Like if you cast {Stolen Identity} on {Gravecrawler}, and in response your opponent kills the gravecrawler, making the stolen identity fizzle. The OP is asking if the spell can still cypher.
Although cypher is not out yet, and we have no completely official rules on it, I think the answer is no. If the spell fizzles, you may not cypher it. Cypher is part of the whole spell. If the spell has no legal target, it can't resolve.
This is what I'm asking.
So, is there any sort of consencous here?
Cipher happens AFTER the spell resolves. So the spell itself will not be countered if you can't cipher it. However, if the spell is unable to resolve for any reason, you will be unable to cipher. The wording of it is "Put a token on the field. Then cipher."
Quote from: prayos on January 27, 2013, 04:39:16 AM
Cipher happens AFTER the spell resolves. So the spell itself will not be countered if you can't cipher it.
But thats completly irelevant... Cipher says "May" and never mentions targetting so it cant fizzle due to illegal target. Because there arent any. You just choose upon {Stolen identity}s resolution if you want to cipher it and on who.
OK FINAL AUTHORITY ON THIS.
If your cipher spell cant resolve it's effect it can NOT cipher. Cipher is part of the greater spell and the spell as a whole can NOT resolve WITHOUT a TARGET. It does not matter how many indent's or spaces you put between the TWO ABILITIES on ONE SPELL, if the spell CAN'T RESOLVE then ALL of it's ABILITIES CAN'T RESOLVE.
For Cipher spells that say the word "target" anywhere one them, if the target is removed, the whole spell goes to the graveyard without doing any effect when it comes time to resolve.
NO TARGET=NO CIPHER
RESOLVED
Quote from: Kaleo42 on January 27, 2013, 04:57:03 AM
OK FINAL AUTHORITY ON THIS.
If your cipher spell cant resolve it's effect it can NOT cipher. Cipher is part of the greater spell and the spell as a whole can NOT resolve WITHOUT a TARGET. It does not matter how many indent's or spaces you put between the TWO ABILITIES on ONE SPELL, if the spell CAN'T RESOLVE then ALL of it's ABILITIES CAN'T RESOLVE.
For Cipher spells that say the word "target" anywhere one them, if the target is removed, the whole spell goes to the graveyard without doing any effect when it comes time to resolve.
NO TARGET=NO CIPHER
RESOLVED!
You make it sound like the spell itself is countered if you can't cipher, which isn't true.
Edit: misread.
Quote from: prayos on January 27, 2013, 10:23:04 AM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on January 27, 2013, 04:57:03 AM
OK FINAL AUTHORITY ON THIS.
If your cipher spell cant resolve it's effect it can NOT cipher. Cipher is part of the greater spell and the spell as a whole can NOT resolve WITHOUT a TARGET. It does not matter how many indent's or spaces you put between the TWO ABILITIES on ONE SPELL, if the spell CAN'T RESOLVE then ALL of it's ABILITIES CAN'T RESOLVE.
For Cipher spells that say the word "target" anywhere one them, if the target is removed, the whole spell goes to the graveyard without doing any effect when it comes time to resolve.
NO TARGET=NO CIPHER
RESOLVED!
You make it sound like the spell itself is countered if you can't cipher, which isn't true.
That is because it is true. {Vapor Snag} doesnt make the player lose a life if it can't successfully boince it's target. {Volt Charge} does not proliferate if it loses it's target and cant resolve the first ability. {Sundering growth} does not populate if it's target becomes an illegal target by the time it would resolve (indestructability would not stop the effect, hexproof would).
Edit: Volt charge ruling-
Rulings
6/1/2011 If the creature or player is an illegal target when Volt Charge tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. You won't proliferate.
EDIT 2: no the spell isnt counted due to an inability to cipher, the reverse is true though cipher is countered do to an inability to spell (cast and resolve).
Also when it comes time to resolve the spell SUCESSFULLY and you choose you encode on a creature your opponent may not say "in response I..." They can however just kill it te next time they have priority.
I think prayos thought it sounded like, "If you cannot encode a creature, the entire spell is countered". Unless I'm misunderstanding prayos' comment. This wouldn't be true, since Cipher is an optional thing; you don't have to encode something to cast the spell.
Quote from: Keyeto on January 27, 2013, 04:15:22 PM
I think prayos thought it sounded like, "If you cannot encode a creature, the entire spell is countered". Unless I'm misunderstanding prayos' comment. This wouldn't be true, since Cipher is an optional thing; you don't have to encode something to cast the spell.
Thanks, I caught that after and edited my statement
Quote from: Kaleo42 on January 27, 2013, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: Keyeto on January 27, 2013, 04:15:22 PM
I think prayos thought it sounded like, "If you cannot encode a creature, the entire spell is countered". Unless I'm misunderstanding prayos' comment. This wouldn't be true, since Cipher is an optional thing; you don't have to encode something to cast the spell.
Thanks, I caught that after and edited my statement
Right. Initially he made it sound as if the spell itself would be countered if you weren't able to cipher. I knew you couldn't cipher if the spell were to be countered.