So my friend played {Oblivion Ring} on my permanent, but bounced it back into his hand. He then said that he'll activate the second effect first before bouncing it back, and effectively exile my permanent forever. Is this legal?
I think I might have posted this in the wrong part of the forum, sorry :x
I don't really see how it is. It clearly states, when it leaves play, the permanent returns. End of story. It was bounced, it left the field, your permanent should return. No ifs, ands, or buts about it
There is a way they could go about this. as the rulings on Gatherer state: If Oblivion Ring leaves the battlefield before its first ability has resolved, its second ability will trigger and do nothing. Then its first ability will resolve and exile the targeted nonland permanent forever. If this is what they did, then it would work.
Apparently, I'm wrong.
Ya, it works.. Its a stupid rule and realy makes little sense and should be changed, but for now it works.
However i dont understand how this works, as you only get to choose the stack when things resolve together. So hed play o-ring, which does nothing until it resolves. O-ring resolves, so he may now bounce it. He bounces o-ring, it leaves the battlefield you get your thing back. Thats the way ive been explained things and how the rules would actually make sense.
Actually in response to my previous comment, i dont think this will work with oblivion ring. Of course i also dont understand the other combo with cloudshift, but whatever
Quote from: MisterJH on January 03, 2013, 09:29:08 AM
However i dont understand how this works, as you only get to choose the stack when things resolve together. So hed play o-ring, which does nothing until it resolves. O-ring resolves, so he may now bounce it. He bounces o-ring, it leaves the battlefield you get your thing back. Thats the way ive been explained things and how the rules would actually make sense.
Actually in response to my previous comment, i dont think this will work with oblivion ring. Of course i also dont understand the other combo with cloudshift, but whatever
Here's how the process goes:
1) Cast O-Ring, target your permanent
2) O-rings ability goes on the stack
3) Bounce O-Ring; second ability goes on the stack.
4) Last thing resolves first; second ability tries to go off, no exiled permanent to return.
5) First ability goes off, exiles permanent.
6) Permanent is exiled and O-ring is in the hand.
Ok but heres the issue. O-ring's ability is when it ETB, NOT when it is cast. O-ring's very existence is placed on the stack. Until it resolves however, o-ring is simply a card on the stack, not a permanent. You cannot bounce it until it resolves. To bounce it, and trigger this particular event, you would have to bounce o-ring FROM the stack, which is impossible. There is no way to justify this working, you cant bounce o-ring until after you let it resolve -.- bounces dont work on things on the stack.
It just doesnt add up
Haha i readthe pancakes one and it did help, but what im not understanding is how the first trigger happens if o-ring never enters the battlefield. Until it resolves, it never enters the battlefield i thought. So until it officially resolves and leaves the stack, its not a viable target to bounce. Thats my understanding of the stack, that objects on the stack are just that, objects. They are not permanents, they are not enchantments, creatures, equipments etc... They are jst cards on the stack, and you cant bounce permanents that arent in play. This is the conflict in my sad sad mind right now.
But O-ring does enter the battlefield, you just have to bounce it back to your hand after it hits the battlefield, but before the initial exiling trigger resolves.
Ah... I see the light. Well thats gay -.-
When do you say what youre targeting with an o-ring? AFTER IT RESOLVES. You cant choose targets for an ETB before you ETB, it'd be like making a wurm token before {armada wurm} resolves or using a counterspell from your graveyard to protect your {snapcaster mage} while he is still on the stack, or searching your deck for land before your {borderland ranger} resolves, etc.
O-ring is a perminent not and Instant or sorcery or even Aura (which is a perminent). Instants, sorceries, and Auras are the only cards that need a target when you cast it (ingnore wrath effects for this statement). Since o-ring is not one of those three it does not target anything while on the stack. It does however put an ability on the stack AFTER it enters the battlefield at which point it is a viable target for anything.
Actually. On the stack is not in play, so you can't do this. Why doesn't someone e-mail Mark Rosewater about it to settle it once and for all. He is the head designer at wizards, and should know all the rules on {oblivion ring}
Thats what i thought originally but now im just confused. Ask the damn creators PLEASE.
Plain and simple, the stack is not the battlefield. By that logic a countered {Thragtusk} would still gain life and produce a token. And that's just ridiculous.
Think about it this way oblivion ring enter the battlefield and shoots it's exile ray towards a target. Before the target is exiled the ring is destroyed releasing a return wave. Since there is nothing exiled yet the return wave does virtually nothing. The exile ray continues to exile the target forever.
{thragtusk} countered does not do its effects when countered because it never entered the battlefield and this never left because it was never there to begin with...else I should have won some of those games...
But the exile ray HAS TO RESOLVE before the return to battlefieldray can be releaed which causes confusion.. I give up -.-
Quote from: MisterJH on January 03, 2013, 02:25:22 PM
But the exile ray HAS TO RESOLVE before the return to battlefieldray can be releaed which causes confusion.. I give up -.-
No that's the point it does not have to resolve before the ring is destroyed. If I'm the flash and I shoot you with a gun and dismantle the gun at light speed the bullet will still hit you regardless of the state of the gun.
Oblivion ring is cast, it enters the battlefield. Due to its wording it's trigger activated not when it's cast, but when it enters. So that being said you have a permenant (o-ring) on the field, and it's effect on the stack. Before that effect resolves, both you or an opponent can respond to it, thus you gain the option to cast a bounce spell. When you do, o rings second ability hits the stack, covering the first. The "return exiled perment" fizzles, due to there being no exiled permenant, and then o rings first effect takes place, exiling whatever you target forever. You just need to understand the stack better to get this wonky combo, but it is legit, just a little difficult to understand.
This just seems stupid and a loophole rather than a realistic use of the stack. Even if it does work, which it seems to, it should still be fixed.
It is a perfectly valid use of the stack. Knowledge is power ;)
THATS A WASTE OF ELECTRICITY! NOOOOO
But i understand it works, i just dont like it. I disagree with its working.
I always thought the stack wasn't in play...do I can {unsummon} a creature as its being played?
No.. Ill use the pancake theory for this.
1. You play oblivion ring. This is a trigger in and of itself. Its an oblivion pancake. So the player who casts oblivion ring(pancake) whom i will refer to as player 1 for convenience, simply allows oblivion ring to resolve. Aka he eats his oblivion pancake.
2. Oblivion ring enters the battlefield, so the initial trigger of him PLAYING the spell has resolved. The resolving of the actual card places a separate trigger, the ETB trigger than allows oblivion ring to exile a permanent. So the playing of oblivion ring puts the exile pancake on the stack. To review, player 1 played oblivion pancake, ate it, then exile pancake is now on the stack, and NOTHING ELSE.
3. With ONLY exile pancake on the stack, not the actual oblivion pancake, player 1 casts a bounce spell. So now theres a bounce pancake smothering the exile pancake you see? There is no card on the stack, simply two abilities, both from player 1. Since the exile pancake is on the bottom, player 1 eats the bounce pancake, however the exile pancake is unaffected by the pancake on top of it. But wait!
4. The bounce pancake triggered the exit the battlefield effect of the oblivion ring! Since it exits the battlefield and causes another trigger(the return pancake perhaps) there is now a return pancake atop the stack. The return pancake now resolves. But whats this? Theres no card to return, as the exile pancake is still on the very bottom, waiting to be eaten. So player 1 eats the return pancake for no purpose other than that he must eat it in order to...
5. EXILE PANCAKE! The exile effect, which has been on the bottom of the stack since the resolving of the original oblivion pancake, now goes off. Player 1 picks a target, eats the pancake, and thats that. Since oblivion ring has already left the field, there is no possibly way to return the exiled card as oblivion ring cannot leave play when it is not in play to begin with
Result: permanent exile.
I didn't say that
I said can you bounce a CREATURE on the stack?
Ya i was just explaining that you cant bounce anything on the stack, and i thought you were referring to boucig o-ring on the stack
I suddenly have the urge to take o ring out of every deck I've ever made. I'm so confused lol
If you can't bounce creatures while on the stack. You can't bounce oblivion ring while on the stack. Otherwise you have a double standerd. If you can bounce one type of permanent, you should be able to bounce another. So you can {cyclonic rift} your own oblivion ring, but can't {cyclonic rift} your own creature? Why don't I just make up a rule that certain spells copy as they resolve. it's a big steaming pile of bull (you know what) is what it is
Quote from: Birdbrain on January 03, 2013, 07:19:32 PM
If you can't bounce creatures while on the stack. You can't bounce oblivion ring while on the stack. Otherwise you have a double standerd. If you can bounce one type of permanent, you should be able to bounce another. So you can {cyclonic rift} your own oblivion ring, but can't {cyclonic rift} your own creature? Why don't I just make up a rule that certain spells copy as they resolve. it's a big steaming pile of bull (you know what) is what it is
You don't bounce o-ring while its on the stack. You bounce it once its on the battlefield, but before the etb trigger resolves. It is on the battlefield when it is bounced.
Quote from: Keyeto on January 03, 2013, 07:22:43 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on January 03, 2013, 07:19:32 PM
If you can't bounce creatures while on the stack. You can't bounce oblivion ring while on the stack. Otherwise you have a double standerd. If you can bounce one type of permanent, you should be able to bounce another. So you can {cyclonic rift} your own oblivion ring, but can't {cyclonic rift} your own creature? Why don't I just make up a rule that certain spells copy as they resolve. it's a big steaming pile of bull (you know what) is what it is
You don't bounce o-ring while its on the stack. You bounce it once its on the battlefield, but before the etb trigger resolves. It is on the battlefield when it is bounced.
Could you do this trick with a creature with a positive effect when it enters, and a negitive effect when it leaves?
Ok then. I was just wanting to be absolutely certain there was consistency with this. If not, then it wouldn't make any sense that it could happen
This has been an absolutely insane thread lol. Oh and btw this:
Quote from: Testset on January 03, 2013, 02:49:27 PM
Imagine a TV remote with an "off" button and an "on" button. You can only hit each button once.
You pick up the remote (O-Ring enters the battlefield)
As your finger heads towards the "on" button (Exile trigger put on stack), your roommate (Cloudshift put on stack and resolved) quickly reaches over (Return to Play trigger put on stack) and presses the "off" button (Return to Play trigger resolves).
The TV was already off, so nothing happens.
Your finger finally hits the "on" button (Exile trigger resolves) and the TV turns on (Permant is exiled).
Since both buttons have been pressed and the remote is now useless (O-Ring is no longer in play), the TV will be on forever.
👍 Awesome. +1 for testset.
I actually understand this entire o-ring scenario. Now I just wanna look through my deck and figure our more ways to manipulate the stack.
The more you know, the more tools you have. I'm going to get aquatinted with the extensive rules so I can be more flexible with in flexible decks like rebels. That was a nightmare when my friends had figured out how to consistently take my deck down...
Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me everyone, I can now enjoy learning now to exploit game mechanics :D
I would say manipulating the stack to better suit yourself is a staple in any good players regiment. It can only make you better.