I want to clear a few things up. The Newtown incident has caused people to blame mass murders on Mental Illnesses. Having a mental illness myself (Aspergers Syndrome), I take major offense. People that blame an incident on something most of them know nothing about is absurd. Most people will only hear of the disease for the first time because of this. It makes them more hostile towards Aspies, and it really irritates me.
Does anyone else agree that people are blaming this incident on us (Aspies) is a little outlandish?
Basically every one has some sort of problem whether it be depression or anger etc. so you can't really put the blame to mentally ill per say.
However, mental illness is nothing to laugh at so I believe we should do as much as possible to make sure they get the help they need.
Yes, mental illness is often unfairly blamed. But so is gun control, and violent television, and society. The true issue is not mental illness but the political correctness crap that makes it impossible to instill moral values in children as part of education, and address problems, such as mental illness, effectively without worrying about offending oversensitive people who often dont even have illnesses themselves, yet feel the need to be the hero for people who are capable of just as much or more than they. Dont be offended by this, there is nothing you can do. Simply realize that this is a way to shift blame to something 'out of their control' so that the issues they create and can control are bypassed and ignored.
Rant complete
Pg-9 language please! -G
Just to get this out there, gun control laws will not be able to keep guns out of people's hands no matter how hard the government tries. It's just not possible. If some one wants a gun he will get it even if it means breaking the law.
I sympathize with Alex on this one. As someone with bipolar disorder, I understand the feeling of having a mental illness that is horribly misunderstood. I have yet to see it portrayed accurately on tv, its always accompanied by dementia or churned to a hyper-speed that just isn't how it works.
Everyone has something valid to say so far here. Mental illness by itself typically does not create a harmful person (certain illnesses are exceptions, sociopathy for example). That being said, its worth noting that mental illness needs to be properly handled, treated, and worked with.
Quote from: Gorzo on December 21, 2012, 07:40:33 PM
I sympathize with Alex on this one. As someone with bipolar disorder, I understand the feeling of having a mental illness that is horribly misunderstood. I have yet to see it portrayed accurately on tv, its always accompanied by dementia or churned to a hyper-speed that just isn't how it works.
Everyone has something valid to say so far here. Mental illness by itself typically does not create a harmful person (certain illnesses are exceptions, sociopathy for example). That being said, its worth noting that mental illness needs to be properly handled, treated, and worked with.
Thank you for your sympathy Gorzo, and I sympathize with you as we'll. While my Aspergers is a smaller case (basically a higher functioning version than most), I've noticed that people who were my friends have veered away from me, and even though I try to convince them it's nothing to worry about, it's affecting my relations with them and others. Even my teachers act differently. It's kinda scary to be honest.
Maybe you should stop talking about it.
Yes ignoring it helps, people dont need to know whats up they should like you for who you are and not judge for things you cant control, thay dont affect anything.
I don't think the radical conservatives are right...who say it should be like the wild west everyone carrying guns. But I do think an armed guard at each school would stop most if not all of these incidents. I mean if you wanted to kill people...even if you were INSANE. You would not approach a building with an armed guard right at the front. This will never happen lol but cool to think about.
Not everyone SHOULD.. But everyone SHOULD be able to excluding those with specific reasons to not be considered safe with access to a firearm(i.e. criminal records or psychopathic tendencies etc..).
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 12:03:00 AM
I don't think the radical conservatives are right...who say it should be like the wild west everyone carrying guns. But I do think an armed guard at each school would stop most if not all of these incidents. I mean if you wanted to kill people...even if you were INSANE. You would not approach a building with an armed guard right at the front. This will never happen lol but cool to think about.
As you know I'm a big fan of logic ;)
Following yours, would you approach the building where every teacher had a gun?
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 04:49:40 AM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 12:03:00 AM
I don't think the radical conservatives are right...who say it should be like the wild west everyone carrying guns. But I do think an armed guard at each school would stop most if not all of these incidents. I mean if you wanted to kill people...even if you were INSANE. You would not approach a building with an armed guard right at the front. This will never happen lol but cool to think about.
As you know I'm a big fan of logic ;)
Following yours, would you approach the building where every teacher had a gun?
CV wouldn't, but a killer of children is not a logical being.
Two armed guards at the elementary school in Newtown would most likely have become victims #27 and 28. It is likely they would die first in an ambush/blitz. A psycho bent on killing will find a way to kill.
If you think about it logically, the guards would be victims #1 and #2, then the teachers would be alarmed bu the gunshots and killer would die as #3.
Possibly, its hard to say with hypotheticals. There are too many unknown and unforeseeable factors: misses? Suppressors/keeping quiet somehow? Mistakes? Slipping on a banana peel and breaking his neck the day before he was going to do this horrible thing?
But lets say the guards and guns everywhere were enough to scare him away. If he sent bomb and it killed those people, would that have been any better?
My theory here is that it would be very difficult for that particular guy to kill so many people if majority of teachers were armed. He would still kill people but not nearly as many. That is all.
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 05:57:34 AM
My theory here is that it would be very difficult for that particular guy to kill so many people if majority of teachers were armed. He would still kill people but not nearly as many. That is all.
So is it mandatory for teachers to have guns? Who issues these guns or do teachers bring their own? Is there a risk of troubled students disarming a teacher in a scuffle and turning the gun on others? Will teachers approach fighting students with guns drawn like police officers? I am a risk analysis type of person and these are the questions I would be considering for likelihood and impact.....then weigh the benefits.
Must fix the school and social environment first before taking guns into consideration
Sorry to the OP if this is too far off topic.
Yeah it is possible that the armed guards could just add to the body count. But on the othe hand, trained guards > psycho killer.
Then theres the issue of unstable teachers... Super liberal anti-gun, anti-violence, PITA>humans teachers... Molesting teachers who now have guns to ensure they are more secure from authority, as students will be much more afraid... Logically giving all teachers guns is like giving every monkey a big red button that blows somethin up... Not every monkey cares, in fact many monkeys may simply put the button down an continue.. But then theres a curious monkey, or simply a bad monkey.. That monkey goin' press that button... Then what happens when every other monkey finds out just what they can do with their button? Well damn i bet some more monkeys will start pressing that button fo sho... Look up the monkeys and the ladder scenario, its a similar explanati
LOL giving teachers guns would be pure insanity. I agree. Sounds like something from a post apocalyptic movie where teachers rule the world.
People discussing this should be more aware of fundamental attribution error...
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 10:24:40 AM
Yeah it is possible that the armed guards could just add to the body count. But on the othe hand, trained guards > psycho killer.
It is possible that they would stop the killer at the door. Now, which is more probable? :P
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
LOL giving teachers guns would be pure insanity.
Well, I'm mildly offended by this one ;)
Quote from: MisterJH on December 22, 2012, 10:37:45 AM
Then theres the issue of unstable teachers... Super liberal anti-gun, anti-violence, PITA>humans teachers... Molesting teachers who now have guns to ensure they are more secure from authority, as students will be much more afraid... Logically giving all teachers guns is like giving every monkey a big red button that blows somethin up... Not every monkey cares, in fact many monkeys may simply put the button down an continue.. But then theres a curious monkey, or simply a bad monkey.. That monkey goin' press that button... Then what happens when every other monkey finds out just what they can do with their button? Well damn i bet some more monkeys will start pressing that button fo sho... Look up the monkeys and the ladder scenario, its a similar explanati
I would understand from this that you are deeply opposed to the school system as such, and offended by the fact that government is forcing your children to be educated by the monkeys, correct? O.o
I mean, you cannot seriously hold such a very low opinion on a group of people and at the same time give them a much more difficult and responsible task. Any moron can be trained to handle gun safely, you are suggesting that the teachers are below that. Not very logical to me ;)
Quote from: cltrn81 on December 22, 2012, 09:54:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 05:57:34 AM
My theory here is that it would be very difficult for that particular guy to kill so many people if majority of teachers were armed. He would still kill people but not nearly as many. That is all.
So is it mandatory for teachers to have guns? Who issues these guns or do teachers bring their own? Is there a risk of troubled students disarming a teacher in a scuffle and turning the gun on others? Will teachers approach fighting students with guns drawn like police officers? I am a risk analysis type of person and these are the questions I would be considering for likelihood and impact.....then weigh the benefits.
Exactly, you have to approach it with cold logic, no emotions whatsoever. You analyse this and try to find solution. In the scenario where all the teachers would be armed, the body count is estimated to be 5 rather than 25. At the same time the body count of various accidents caused by arming teachers is 10. Total 15 vs. 25. Easy.
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 10:24:40 AM
Yeah it is possible that the armed guards could just add to the body count. But on the othe hand, trained guards > psycho killer.
It is possible that they would stop the killer at the door. Now, which is more probable? :P
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on December 22, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
LOL giving teachers guns would be pure insanity.
Well, I'm mildly offended by this one ;)
Quote from: MisterJH on December 22, 2012, 10:37:45 AM
Then theres the issue of unstable teachers... Super liberal anti-gun, anti-violence, PITA>humans teachers... Molesting teachers who now have guns to ensure they are more secure from authority, as students will be much more afraid... Logically giving all teachers guns is like giving every monkey a big red button that blows somethin up... Not every monkey cares, in fact many monkeys may simply put the button down an continue.. But then theres a curious monkey, or simply a bad monkey.. That monkey goin' press that button... Then what happens when every other monkey finds out just what they can do with their button? Well damn i bet some more monkeys will start pressing that button fo sho... Look up the monkeys and the ladder scenario, its a similar explanati
I would understand from this that you are deeply opposed to the school system as such, and offended by the fact that government is forcing your children to be educated by the monkeys, correct? O.o
I mean, you cannot seriously hold such a very low opinion on a group of people and at the same time give them a much more difficult and responsible task. Any moron can be trained to handle gun safely, you are suggesting that the teachers are below that. Not very logical to me ;)
To be fair.. There are some surprisingly unqualified teachers.. The monkeys were just an analogy, its natural instinct rather than intellectual similarities i was going for.. And suppose gun training was part of teacher training? First of all, more $$ we dont have, as well as trained teachers handling guns if one happens to snap and go crazy, which doesnt happen often, but like i said its still an unecessary temptation/risk/expense... Back to the education system, ive generlaly had horrendous teachers and have learned all of my reading/writing skills on my own, so ya im not a huge fan but thats besides the point.
I think anyone could agree arming teachers is not even a considerable option, especially with complications of government. There would be no way around the legalities. Then, arguments would be made that students need a way to defend against teachers... So every student now can carry a gun potentially.. BUT THEN, some students are poor! So we issue EVERY STUDENT school guns! So now we supply kids with guns to be FAIR! Because we're in AMERICA, and things need to be FAIR now! No, giving teachers guns would be the biggest failure on the part of any government ever.. What we need to do is realize there is not a damn thing we can do honestly, without creating a myriad of other problems. The best we can do is be vigilant, and dont dare take guns away from people lest only criminals have firearms in public, with no way for those with a concealed weapons license to scare off the common criminal. Nothing we do is goingto get rid of the black market, so changing the legalities will only succeed in more illegal gun trade. Bleh this issue is pretty stupid
Another analogy mine as well be is to give the children guns
Guys, we're just theorising here. None of what we think or say has any impact on actual government.
Quote from: cltrn81 on December 22, 2012, 09:54:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 05:57:34 AM
My theory here is that it would be very difficult for that particular guy to kill so many people if majority of teachers were armed. He would still kill people but not nearly as many. That is all.
So is it mandatory for teachers to have guns? Who issues these guns or do teachers bring their own? Is there a risk of troubled students disarming a teacher in a scuffle and turning the gun on others? Will teachers approach fighting students with guns drawn like police officers? I am a risk analysis type of person and these are the questions I would be considering for likelihood and impact.....then weigh the benefits.
This is my train of thought as well. It seems like the hypothetical risks outweigh the hypothetical benefits. Even if, lets say, our army of gun-toting vigilante teachers stops the 1 rare shooter like this one (who I still say would have just used a bomb if he couldn't have gone in with a gun - killers will find a way to kill, they always have, always will), will the number of lives saved even be higher than lives lost by accidental deaths from incompetent gun-bearing teachers, incidents involving student-teacher conflicts, and abuse from power-crazed teachers that are now armed? And what if a teacher goes crazy? We GAVE him a gun. His classroom is gone.
I'm a member of 100 years old shooting club. The club trained me and God knows how many others. The number of gun accidents in the club since 1909: zero. Guns are not nearly as dangerous as I'm reading here, you are scared of them for no proper reason.
To change the subject a bit, there is documented ~1000 statistical deaths by car in 2002, these were caused by gut feelings of people who decided to take the car rather than a plane. It was caused by unreasonable fear after 9.11.
As a side note, anything .politics.-related from me on this forum assumes that iMtG Law is potentially The Constitution of US of A ;) .politics. is my hobby, and I was practicing it much longer than Magic, I know bits and bobs about it. I'm not really interested in real .politics., I'm interested in science of law. I believe that the .politics. of today should be replaced with anything else. There's no less-logical system than democracy of today. Democracy solves no problems, it creates a hell of a lot. Nomocracy is what I believe is the future of mankind.
What if we gave the guns to the teachers, but they were stored in some sort of safe box, perhaps all controlled by a central control (which would open the safe box) in the principals office or something? Or maybe if one was opened, an alarm would go off of some sort, so that we would know that a teacher "snapped" or something. A system like this might work out, all the teachers have guns, but don't have access to them unless a crisis is happening (provided the central control thing could work). That way they can protect themselves, and we don't have to worry about accidents.
What if... All guns were replaces with stuffed animals? Problem solved
I would pay extratax for a police (alreadt trained) to stand in front of schools. Do you think it would make a difference?
Maybe, maybe not. Just as likely as not the next killer would factor in te guard, and just sneak past him or surprise him. My belief is that wont go very far in prevention
Yeah true. Or maybe he would just go to the mall instead. Sigh
Quote from: MisterJH on December 22, 2012, 02:20:34 PM
What if... All guns were replaces with stuffed animals? Problem solved
Problem solved for civilians. But criminals will still find guns and still kill people. So instead of defending ourselves with guns, we'll have those stuffed animals. Hopefully they can stop some bullets.
Quote from: Keyeto on December 22, 2012, 02:11:14 PM
What if we gave the guns to the teachers, but they were stored in some sort of safe box, perhaps all controlled by a central control (which would open the safe box) in the principals office or something? Or maybe if one was opened, an alarm would go off of some sort, so that we would know that a teacher "snapped" or something. A system like this might work out, all the teachers have guns, but don't have access to them unless a crisis is happening (provided the central control thing could work). That way they can protect themselves, and we don't have to worry about accidents.
Would you send your kid to such school, if the other choice school had no-guns policy, the rest being equal?
I feel like if we paid paid police officers more money (money which they truly deserve instead of paying sports players millions) we would have a more efficient system and possibly a better way to protect against this, either more officers because police would have a bigger budget and thus more job positions or through their investment in technologies to protect our schools, like metal detectors and that kind of thing.
Or instead of paying officers significantly more, spend more on the selection/training process, so we have fit and effective officers.
Quote from: MisterJH on December 22, 2012, 02:38:56 PM
Or instead of paying officers significantly more, spend more on the selection/training process, so we have fit and effective officers.
I should rephrase- not individually but law enforcement as a whole.
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 02:02:08 PM
I'm a member of 100 years old shooting club. The club trained me and God knows how many others. The number of gun accidents in the club since 1909: zero. Guns are not nearly as dangerous as I'm reading here, you are scared of them for no proper reason.
You misunderstand, I have no fear of guns. I like them. I fear stupid people, who unlike you, are not trained, do not use logic, cannot properly handle a firearm, do not respect other people's natural rights, and cannot control their abnormal behavior. I don't believe that banning guns is the answer, i think it's blaming the tool the carpenter's craftsmanship. You need to treat the real problem - people. Education. Proper care for mental health. Fixing the problems in law enforcement and rehabilitation. And so on.
One of my best friends is an arms dealer (a legitimate one, for the record lol) and this arms ban craze is killing his business. He can't get supplies to sell, because $10 magazines are going for $300 right now.
The more that I hear about this entire issue, the more it seems like it's a little more complex then just "guns are bad".
Also, "High Capacity clips"
Quote from: Gorzo on December 22, 2012, 03:04:09 PM
One of my best friends is an arms dealer (a legitimate one, for the record lol) and this arms ban craze is killing his business. He can't get supplies to sell, because $10 magazines are going for $300 right now.
Wow, do you still have supply and demand in the US, or is it like Poland when I was born?
I probably misunderstood again ;) Did you mean that the business is so good that he can put 2900% premium on a box of ammo?
Dont think people should use mental illness as an excuse. Also, people shouldn't judge people with a mental illness just because of one lunatic. There should be some famous people with aspergers so it's more well known and not thought about in a bad sense.
Quote from: Birdbrain on December 22, 2012, 06:20:07 PM
Dont think people should use mental illness as an excuse. Also, people shouldn't judge people with a mental illness just because of one lunatic. There should be some famous people with aspergers so it's more well known and not thought about in a bad sense.
The only 'in bad sense' I've heard in relation to aspergers was in Alex's stories. I've never seen it myself. Could be similar to Polish antisemitism, I suppose :P Mind you, I don't watch TV :D
Quote from: Piotr on December 22, 2012, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 22, 2012, 03:04:09 PM
One of my best friends is an arms dealer (a legitimate one, for the record lol) and this arms ban craze is killing his business. He can't get supplies to sell, because $10 magazines are going for $300 right now.
Wow, do you still have supply and demand in the US, or is it like Poland when I was born?
I probably misunderstood again ;) Did you mean that the business is so good that he can put 2900% premium on a box of ammo?
Yes, we have supply and demand. Sure, he got some extra in sales when sold out, but not enough to turn over to buy new product. Especially as prices keep skyrocketing.
He gave me this example: he has a sig sauer m400. 2 weeks ago, that rifle was worth about $1300 USD. If he had sold it when his shop inventory was bought out, it would have sold for about $1900. When he gave me this example Friday, buying a new one to replace it would have cost nearly $3000.
Wow... I really started something here.