This is probably easy for some of you pros out there, I guess it's probably more related to when damage actually resolves on a creature.
Eg: I attack with my {Sightless Ghoul} and my opponent chooses to block with his {Cystbearer}. The zombie dies and comes back with a +1/+1 counter on it. No problem.
The next round I attack with it again and this time they block with a {Tel-Jilad Fallen} elf creature. This time both creatures die. My question is whether the -1/-1 counters of the infect dealer removes my +1/+1 counter before the it is pronounced dead and shipped off to the graveyard. If so would it then come back to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter as the other was removed?
I do understand this much that if the {Cystbearer} blocked the second time it would not deal a fatal amount of damage to the zombie (with the +1/+1) and would then remove the +1 and add a -1 (for a total of 2 damage) and the zombie could then die and come back again with a +1 counter on it. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Thanks for any insight. :)
Edit: it looks like the dark ascension stuff isn't in here yet, so that link for the zombie won't work. His details are:
Sightless Ghoul
Creature - Zombie Soldier
Sightless Zombie can't block
Undying - (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
From the Dark Ascension Mechanics:
If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.
Quote from: Prophylaxis on January 29, 2012, 01:04:15 AM
From the Dark Ascension Mechanics:
If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.
Rules wise, i dont believe they acctualy "cancel out" so to speak. If a creature has say 2 (+1/+1) counters, and 2 (-1/-1) counters then there is still 4 counters on the creatue so that an ability such as {Spinal Parasite}'s could be activated to remove a counter of choice. Players choose to say they cancel out just to make gameplay a little easier. As for the Op's question the creature does not come back because the (+1/+1) counter still is on the creatue as well as the (-1/-1) counter. So sorry no, I dont believe it comes back.
When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨
Quote from: BlackJester on January 31, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨
i understand the rules, but matter and anti-matter dont annihilate each other, do they?
Quote from: BlackJester on January 31, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains....
Yes this is as I understand rule 121.3
I guess I was asking if this happens at the same time as damage is resolved or before? My guess that they both happen simultaneously, the creature dies and is not returned to the battlefield. (much simpler result anyway lol)
And yeah, both counters definitely do not remain on the permanent past the end of combat.
Quote from: Mentonin on January 31, 2012, 06:48:10 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on January 31, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨
i understand the rules, but matter and anti-matter dont annihilate each other, do they?
It was late when I posted this and I couldn't decide on an appropriate particle/anti-particle metaphor. So I duffed it. ⛳
Quote from: Wally on January 31, 2012, 07:04:42 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on January 31, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains....
Yes this is as I understand rule 121.3
I guess I was asking if this happens at the same time as damage is resolved or before? My guess that they both happen simultaneously, the creature dies and is not returned to the battlefield. (much simpler result anyway lol)
And yeah, both counters definitely do not remain on the permanent past the end of combat.
After damage is dealt (resolves), SBE will simultaneously destroy the guys and remove counters. They stay dead.
I believe that + counters and - counters are treated as modifiers to a single total counter on a permanent. Such that a permanent. Annoy have +2/+2 and a -1/-1; it would just be the sum; +1+1.
In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically. If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.
Quote from: Ish on January 31, 2012, 05:29:42 PM
I believe that + counters and - counters are treated as modifiers to a single total counter on a permanent. Such that a permanent. Annoy have +2/+2 and a -1/-1; it would just be the sum; +1+1.
In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically. If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.
Nope. Check CR121.3 If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
Lol no idea what that means can you explain state based action
State-based Actions (SBAs) are things that the game does to "clean things up". It's SBAs that say, if a creature takes enough damage to destroy it, then destroy it. If a creature has 0 toughness, it dies. etc. SBAs are checked at certain times, typically not in the middle of something resolving, but right before anyone receives priority.
To quote Ish
In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically. If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.
Well I guess this settles it then.
Thanks all!
:D
Edit: above is not correct, keep reading!
Quote from: Wally on February 01, 2012, 07:11:05 AM
To quote Ish
In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically. If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.
Well I guess this settles it then.
Thanks all!
:D
Where does Wizards address this? That's not the right answer...
Lol yeah I couldn't find that anywhere.
Here's what I did find tho. (pls excuse the great slabs of text)
702.91. Undying
702.91a Undying is a triggered ability. "Undying" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it."
* Each card with undying is a creature. If one of them stops being a creature, undying will still work.
* The undying ability triggers when the permanent is put into a graveyard. Its last known information (that is, how the creature last existed on the battlefield) is used to determine whether it had a +1/+1 counter on it.
* If a permanent has multiple instances of undying, they'll each trigger separately, but the redundant instances will have no effect. If one instance returns the card to the battlefield, the next to resolve will do nothing.
* If a token with no +1/+1 counters on it has undying, the ability will trigger when the token is put into the graveyard. However, the token will cease to exist and can't return to the battlefield.
* When a permanent with undying returns to the battlefield, it's a new object with no memory of or connection to its previous existence.
* If multiple creatures with undying are put into the graveyard at the same time (due to combat damage or a spell that destroys all creatures, for example), the active player (the player whose turn it is) puts all of his or her undying triggers on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order does the same. The last trigger put on the stack is the first one that resolves. That means that in a two-player game, the nonactive player's undying creatures will return to the battlefield first, then the active player's undying creatures do the same. The creatures return to the battlefield one at a time.
* If a creature with undying that has a +1/+1 counter on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, undying won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because undying checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
See? When in doubt, read the rules. ;)
Or ask jester and blame him if it's wrong.
Still waiting for rule of the day. Jkjk
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 10:50:55 AM
Or ask jester and blame him if it's wrong.
Still waiting for rule of the day. Jkjk
A) I'm not really sure what I'd DO with a rule of the day
B) I think you'd be the only one reading it.
Quote from: BlackJester on February 01, 2012, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 10:50:55 AM
Or ask jester and blame him if it's wrong.
Still waiting for rule of the day. Jkjk
A) I'm not really sure what I'd DO with a rule of the day
B) I think you'd be the only one reading it.
Still kidding about rule of the day
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 11:40:47 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on February 01, 2012, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 10:50:55 AM
Or ask jester and blame him if it's wrong.
Still waiting for rule of the day. Jkjk
A) I'm not really sure what I'd DO with a rule of the day
B) I think you'd be the only one reading it.
Still kidding about rule of the day
And I'm still kidding about taking you seriously.
I'd read it! As a self thought (is this right spelled?) magic player, I love to discover new rules, and I still have MUCH to learn
Quote from: Mentonin on February 01, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
I'd read it! As a self thought (is this right spelled?) magic player, I love to discover new rules, and I still have MUCH to learn
I think your looking for self taught (meaning you learned how to play by your own means) But your English is better then then most people here who were born speaking it.
I always like when the people who teach you only give you half the rules. Then when you start winning they informs you about the rest to help them keep a leg up on you.
Quote from: Mentonin on February 01, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
I'd read it! As a self thought (is this right spelled?) magic player, I love to discover new rules, and I still have MUCH to learn
Self-taught, but I get it. 😌
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 12:31:42 PM
Quote from: Mentonin on February 01, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
I'd read it! As a self thought (is this right spelled?) magic player, I love to discover new rules, and I still have MUCH to learn
I think your looking for self taught (meaning you learned how to play by your own means) But your English is better then then most people here who were born speaking it.
I always like when the people who teach you only give you half the rules. Then when you start winning they informs you about the rest to help them keep a leg up on you.
Oh, thank you. Sometimes I get confused with the taught/tough/though/thought thing.
As per this question... Declare attack... Declare blocks... After the declaration of blocking instants/abilities can be activated... Then the battle occures... Should an instant OR an ability remove counters PRIOR to the battle going on, a creature with undying comes back... Period... (-1/-1 counters arent placed as per SBA's untill AFTER the battle and after creatures die, therefor normal damage is delt untill AFTER death...)
As per does anti-matter destroy matter... Yes... Yes it does... More "matter" that an atomic bomb would destroy... Per say...
( thank you mtg online and mtg for ps3 for answerig this question)
All very true. The tricky part with infect is that it replaces how damage is dealt. So when infect creatures deal damage, the counters are added at the same time as the rest of combat damage, not as a SBA.
I think a lot of users are going struggle With this.
Quote from: BlackJester on February 01, 2012, 05:17:09 PM
All very true. The tricky part with infect is that it replaces how damage is dealt. So when infect creatures deal damage, the counters are added at the same time as the rest of combat damage, not as a SBA.
I think a lot of users are going struggle With this.
Yup, that's what got me, because it wasn't a replacement effect, it dealt damage in the form of.. Etc.
Hey, isn't matter indestructible? Like, can't be created or destroyed, only transformed?
Quote from: Mentonin on February 01, 2012, 06:42:50 PM
Hey, isn't matter indestructible? Like, can't be created or destroyed, only transformed?
Matter and energy are interchangeable.
Does it really matter?
Quote from: Rass on February 01, 2012, 07:04:20 PM
Does it really matter?
I see what you did there o.O
Still waiting on that rule of the day mister sparty pants. ðŸ'©
Rule of the day #1: You do not talk about the Rule of the day.
Rule of the day #2: You do NOT talk about the Rule of the day.
😜
Quote from: BlackJester on February 01, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
Rule of the day #1: You do not talk about the Rule of the day.
Rule of the day #2: You do NOT talk about the Rule of the day.
😜
But then no one could join the fight club-I mean rule club-I mean nothing! Nothing!
His name was Robert Paulson
Correct, infect is delt as damage is delt, it is a state based action because the damage MUST resolve, unless you can permenetly make a creature bigger, when your using infect, the creAture dies (kimda like putting an instant on a creature, the instant resolves at end of turn and the creature dies cuz its in a negative format -1/-4 ect) the damage does not resolve (i believe) until end of combat... Please correct me if im wrong