Just watched an article by Brad Nelson saying Delver is dead in standard?
Do you care?
Delver is not dead I personally do not like delver but I know it's not dead
It isnt dead, it just has to adapt. We wont see it top 8 much this month, but give it time and itll come back with a vengance. I dot know if itll survive for long after that though.
I feel like Detain fixes Delver U/W Control way more.
Dealer decks well realy start to turn into detain control decks
Quote from: Monrodesign on October 01, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Just watched an article by Brad Nelson saying Delver is dead in standard?
Do you care?
you watched an article???
Quote from: AgrusKos on October 01, 2012, 06:37:26 PM
Quote from: Monrodesign on October 01, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Just watched an article by Brad Nelson saying Delver is dead in standard?
Do you care?
you watched an article???
I'm good like that.
I'm sure I could whip up a decent detainver deck
Yeah it's dead. I feel like the counter magic isn't good enough and there is so much working against it now. There isn't enough things which can protect a delver in a cost efficient way. Vapor snag was so good and unsommon isn't even close. I feel like we aren't going to be seeing and uw delver. Maybe ur delver because there are some decent burn spells ala mizzium mortars but it's not going to be great. Maybe come gatecrash
Quote from: Agrajagzz9 on October 01, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
Yeah it's dead. I feel like the counter magic isn't good enough and there is so much working against it now. There isn't enough things which can protect a delver in a cost efficient way. Vapor snag was so good and unsommon isn't even close. I feel like we aren't going to be seeing and uw delver. Maybe ur delver because there are some decent burn spells ala mizzium mortars but it's not going to be great. Maybe come gatecrash
Everyone says that unsummon is SO much worse then vapor snag, but IT ISN'T! The one damage means barely anything. Sure you can ping your opponent, but unsummon allows you to also return your OWN creatures with no health loss
Glad to see it go. Hated FNM's where everyone was playing either delver, G with prime time, or damn tokens (but they never remembered to bring tokens.....). It was literally the same three decks, down to the sb.
Quote from: Guitello on October 01, 2012, 07:15:26 PM
Quote from: Agrajagzz9 on October 01, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
Yeah it's dead. I feel like the counter magic isn't good enough and there is so much working against it now. There isn't enough things which can protect a delver in a cost efficient way. Vapor snag was so good and unsommon isn't even close. I feel like we aren't going to be seeing and uw delver. Maybe ur delver because there are some decent burn spells ala mizzium mortars but it's not going to be great. Maybe come gatecrash
Everyone says that unsummon is SO much worse then vapor snag, but IT ISN'T! The one damage means barely anything. Sure you can ping your opponent, but unsummon allows you to also return your OWN creatures with no health loss
It was more just good for the phyrexian cost
I have said this before, but few people seem to understand it.
Each point of damage matters!
Pre rotation many delver decks didnt even main counter spells. The whole concept of it's victory was based on pings and pokes here and there and cost effective spells that insured the pokes got through. Then the icing on the cake was the fact at any moment the deck was likely to whip out 5-12 damage out of no where.
Loss of {Vapor Snag} {Gut Shot} and {Mana Leak} hurts...
But it's {Ponder} that really just kills Delver decks as they pre-RtR
Quote from: izik99 on October 01, 2012, 07:34:28 PM
Quote from: Guitello on October 01, 2012, 07:15:26 PM
Quote from: Agrajagzz9 on October 01, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
Yeah it's dead. I feel like the counter magic isn't good enough and there is so much working against it now. There isn't enough things which can protect a delver in a cost efficient way. Vapor snag was so good and unsommon isn't even close. I feel like we aren't going to be seeing and uw delver. Maybe ur delver because there are some decent burn spells ala mizzium mortars but it's not going to be great. Maybe come gatecrash
Everyone says that unsummon is SO much worse then vapor snag, but IT ISN'T! The one damage means barely anything. Sure you can ping your opponent, but unsummon allows you to also return your OWN creatures with no health loss
It was more just good for the phyrexian cost
{Vapor Snag} doesn't have a Phyrexian cost.
Is delver dead? I don't think it is. There will still be ppl trying to build and play delver. Is it a tier 1 deck...No. The lost of {ponder} makes sure that happens. It will be less consistent deck and the lost of the Phyrexian mana makes sure it will not stay UW. I think splashing {R} could help the deck but not make it more consistent delver flips.
Quote from: Phat Max on October 01, 2012, 08:11:48 PM
Loss of {Vapor Snag} {Gut Shot} and {Mana Leak} hurts...
But it's {Ponder} that really just kills Delver decks as they pre-RtR
{index} could replace ponder, and I think red blue izzet delver will dominate again.
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on October 01, 2012, 09:59:09 PM
Quote from: Phat Max on October 01, 2012, 08:11:48 PM
Loss of {Vapor Snag} {Gut Shot} and {Mana Leak} hurts...
But it's {Ponder} that really just kills Delver decks as they pre-RtR
{index} could replace ponder, and I think red blue izzet delver will dominate again.
{index} could never replace {ponder} just saying
This is true. Ponder gave you the card draw. Index... Well let's just say it falls short.
Quote from: Greg54js on October 01, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
This is true. Ponder gave you the card draw. Index... Well let's just say it falls short.
Boo hoo you don't get a draw, index lets you plan out your next 5 moves, I can't tell you how many times I've pondered for a land draw and not seen it in the next 3 and be set back from only having two open while running 21 lands
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on October 01, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Greg54js on October 01, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
This is true. Ponder gave you the card draw. Index... Well let's just say it falls short.
Boo hoo you don't get a draw, index lets you plan out your next 5 moves, I can't tell you how many times I've pondered for a land draw and not seen it in the next 3 and be set back from only having two open while running 21 lands
The problem is that {index} doesn't provide tempo. Tempo is what delver lives off of.
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on October 01, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Greg54js on October 01, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
This is true. Ponder gave you the card draw. Index... Well let's just say it falls short.
Boo hoo you don't get a draw, index lets you plan out your next 5 moves, I can't tell you how many times I've pondered for a land draw and not seen it in the next 3 and be set back from only having two open while running 21 lands
ponder is better hands down, you get to draw a card which is an obvious advantage, but you can also shuffle to reset your deck which is nice for resetting your deck
Yes rearranging 5 is better than 3 but ponder lets you draw that card on top when you need it instead of making you wait a turn. I would not go so far to say {index} is to {ponder} as {shivan oasis} is to {taiga}.....my point is the oasis makes you wait a turn and so does index.
Quote from: ChrisRodriguez on October 01, 2012, 10:55:18 PM
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on October 01, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Greg54js on October 01, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
This is true. Ponder gave you the card draw. Index... Well let's just say it falls short.
Boo hoo you don't get a draw, index lets you plan out your next 5 moves, I can't tell you how many times I've pondered for a land draw and not seen it in the next 3 and be set back from only having two open while running 21 lands
The problem is that {index} doesn't provide tempo. Tempo is what delver lives off of.
I agree.
I use my {Evolving Wilds} to shuffle away a bad {Index} but its not enough.
Splashing red in my opinion is the right answer here, adding {bonfire of the damned} and {index} plus 2 main deck {niv-mizzet dracogenius} makes a very gross mid-late game
Quote from: Bcstang on October 02, 2012, 12:17:04 AM
Splashing red in my opinion is the right answer here, adding {bonfire of the damned} and {index} plus 2 main deck {niv-mizzet dracogenius} makes a very gross mid-late game
I would not play {Index}. Without the shuffle of ponder, it's telling you if your F'd or not based on what you will draw. From what I have seen in testing UR Delver falls short to other popular decks like Jund zombies, 5 Color Control, and GW Tokens