Please tell me if you consider this theft. Person A and person B are dating. Person A offer some dual lands to person B on loan, to spruce up an EDH deck. After a few months they break up. Person A ask for the lands back, person B doesn't return them for a few weeks, out of frustration, person A tells person B to forget about returning the cards. Almost a year later, person A finds out that B sold two out f three of the cards. When B catches wind that person A has been telling the mtg community that B stole cards, B returns the third land back to A.
Did B steal from A?
Well not really if they said forget about it but its still pretty 💩ty of them on there part they should have returned them and at the very least not sold them
Quote from: Ericlay95 on September 25, 2012, 12:45:04 AM
Well not really if they said forget about it but its still pretty 💩ty of them on there part they should have returned them and at the very least not sold them
Once A gave up claim of wanting then back, they became Bs to do with what B pleases.
My GF has a ring from an ex that he doesn't want back, and she is looking to sell it. Ring wasn't a loan but similar point.
Tough call. Once A asked for them back, B should have given them back right away. I mean sure, we all know how breakups are, but not why not give them back? Spite? What good is that? Just has a negative impact on both people.
But, once A says "Ugh I've had enough, just keep the damn things, I'm tired of your crap," its hard to call them "stolen" because B can now say "They're mine, A said I can keep them."
I certainly don't agree with what person B did, I think not returning them and then selling them was rather spiteful, but unfortunately calling it theft be technically untrue (even if its fundamentally true).
Condolences to person A.
Not so tough of a call then.
Quote from: Piotr on September 25, 2012, 04:19:15 AM
Not so tough of a call then.
More tough to swallow than tough to call, I suppose.
Quote from: Moneekahh on September 25, 2012, 12:33:45 AM
Please tell me if you consider this theft. Person A and person B are dating. Person A offer some dual lands to person B on loan, to spruce up an EDH deck. After a few months they break up. Person A ask for the lands back, person B doesn't return them for a few weeks, out of frustration, person A tells person B to forget about returning the cards. Almost a year later, person A finds out that B sold two out f three of the cards. When B catches wind that person A has been telling the mtg community that B stole cards, B returns the third land back to A.
Did B steal from A?
were the cards sold before the breakup or after?
Theft or not, it's called being a good person... I don't understand. Sure the cards are worth something, but what kind of thought process justifies selling something that isn't yours?
At the stage when it was sold, the ownership was with the seller.
The answer is clearly no.
They may have been an a*hole, but not a thief. Is A*hole not prime time TV?
Ehh I can see the reasoning of calling a person a thief. Can I judge it no. What was the context of the person giving them away. Did they say it in a nice way. "I know we had our problems but you might as well keep those cards." Or was it more like. "F@€k it I know I'm never gonna see those cards you might as well keep them then so I never have to talk to you again."
Follow up question. Was person B ever planning on giving them back?(then you can answer this question yourself). What made the person change their mind to tell person B to keep them.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend
I would call it theft. B willingly let A get frustrated enough to give up on returning the lands so A would, in exasperation, give up on expecting the lands back.
Let's use an example, A lent a car to B to use because B really needs a car. A still owns the title to the car but B has the only copies of the keys. B refuses to return the car keys back to A and A gives up in frustration. B eventually sells the car and A finds out, gets mad blahblahblah and so forth.
Obviously, in this case there is no proof of ownership(a title) of cards, but B knows who the cards belong to and so does A. I see it as theft, or larceny because the property was unwillingly turned over by A to B.
Quote from: Cindjor on September 26, 2012, 05:03:16 AM
I would call it theft. B willingly let A get frustrated enough to give up on returning the lands so A would, in exasperation, give up on expecting the lands back.
Well, no. A willingly let the ownership pass to B, and that's that. What was the reason and what influenced A's decision is another story.
Quote from: Piotr on September 26, 2012, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Cindjor on September 26, 2012, 05:03:16 AM
I would call it theft. B willingly let A get frustrated enough to give up on returning the lands so A would, in exasperation, give up on expecting the lands back.
Well, no. A willingly let the ownership pass to B, and that's that. What was the reason and what influenced A's decision is another story.
Do we really know how will the person was? It was never stated how the "gift was given".
I believe that there's a 6 month period wherein if you lend someone something and 6 months goes by an you don't try to get it back, it's theirs.
This is just something I've heard.
Let's thicken the plot:
To answer questions, B claims to have intended on returning the cards to A after the break up. A t
A claims to have told B to forget about returning the cards out of frustration and not wanting to deal with B anymore. A lent B the cards without even being asked by B.
I am one of these letters, btw.
You don't say... 😏 😄
Figured :P sorry about the breakup, whichever letter you may be. Bad breakups kinda suck. A lot.
I still stand by what seems to be the general consensus, that it's not theft.
Not that my opinion really matters on this, but I still believe that it would have been the nice/"good" thing to do of B to return the cards ASAP before the frustrated change of ownership and sale of two of them could have taken place. And to keep things fair, A should not have gone and labeled B as a thief to their whole mtg meta. Neither of those things needed to happen, just be civil! But yeah, I know, relationships and breakups don't exactly work that way all the time. :(
Quote from: Testset on September 26, 2012, 10:50:36 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on September 26, 2012, 10:25:26 PM
I believe that there's a 6 month period wherein if you lend someone something and 6 months goes by an you don't try to get it back, it's theirs.
This is just something I've heard.
Is that based on Canadian law?
Definitely not on the Gathering Law :P
Sounds very wrong (as in, evil) to me.
Sounds like if this whole situation was magic cards, "gain control of two dually lands until end of turn" and then you sac them for some other spell that wins you the game the deck being played would be blue and black. Or more appropriately, conniving and evil. That's like losing a black lotus to a bronze tablet. Bad form. Sure it's in the rules (if you're playing for ante) but how could you ever feel good about yourself afterwards?
Yeeeeah no, still not theft. Especially if he didn't even ask to borrow them in the first place and you willingly let him borrow them. Tacky? Yes. Theft? No.
Hey, not saying its theft. Just a dick move. Bad form.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 27, 2012, 11:53:31 AM
Hey, not saying its theft. Just a dick move. Bad form.
I agree. I wasn't replying to your comment. I was replying the the OPs further comments. Definitely bad form. But on the other hand, I wouldn't have willingly lend out something of value and get mad when it isn't returned. That's the risk you take.
Ex. I wouldn't let someone borrow my brand new car, but I'd let them borrow my secondhand mountain bike that I paid $20 for.
Regardless it definitely does suck and maybe the OP learned a lesson.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 26, 2012, 10:25:26 PM
I believe that there's a 6 month period wherein if you lend someone something and 6 months goes by an you don't try to get it back, it's theirs.
This is just something I've heard.
In kentucky its just 30 days. Like if you leave a game at a freinds house for 30 legaly its your freinds now. But in doing this doesnt mean you wont get your a$£ kicked
Not that it's anything to brag about, but I've had my fair share of failed relationships and you always give each other your stuff back. Saves everybody the drama. Mail it to them or put it all in a box and have a mutual friend drop it off if you can't stand dealing with them anymore. Civility goes a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 27, 2012, 12:09:13 PM
Not that it's anything to brag about, but I've had my fair share of failed relationships and you always give each other your stuff back. Saves everybody the drama. Mail it to them or put it all in a box and have a mutual friend drop it off if you can't stand dealing with them anymore. Civility goes a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way.
This. Civility isn't always legally correct, but we have to have moral integrity.
Thanks guys! :) the big debate on our local mtg Facebook group was to whether theft occurred in this situation and I wanted to get some unbiased perspective.