One of the sites that has spoilers has comments on the bottom of the page, and they were debating the intelligence of nicol bolas compared to niv-mizzet. I was justwondering what anyone else thought.
Bolas is the oldest and smartest PW. Also bolas has the power to control other PW. Niv is not on that lvl of power. I do like both dragons though.
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 06:07:05 PM
Nicol Bolas was planeswalkin' before planswalkin' was cool....
Niv-Mizzet isn't even a planes walker. No contest
Is Planeswalking a measure of intelligence? If so, would that make Garruk smarter than Niv too?
Just because he doesn't have a spark doesn't make him less intelligent IMHO.
I like now Niv doesn't have a spark. He's superiorly gifted and yet can't dominate outside of Ravnica. The Phyrexian and Eldrazi too, their power is vast enough to destroy worlds, but not powerful enough to defeat planeswalkers (multiple).
I thought Pherexia COULD planewalk. No? I'm not that sure.
Gaining the spark comes from an intense an emotional moment for an individual. Maybe Niv is trying to cross-planes using science. Hence the new, massive research.
I am not extremely versed in lore, but I was under the assumption that a planeswalker was infected by the Phyrexians, and that is how they were able to cross over. JaCe BeLeReN would know infinitely more then me.
Old phrexians could Travel through portals but only to and from dominaria and old phyrexia. But they built devices to make invading easier, {crucible of worlds} and {planar portal} show this in their artwork, after they made planar portals though the could travel any plane cept doninaria due to the powerstones blocking them.NEW phrexians can't planeswalk at all.
Nicol bolas is infinitely wiser then Niv, however how they fair intellectually has yet to be seen...
Then we have to ask "what is intelligence?"
Knowing of facts?
Ability to reason?
I'm going to say that Bolas is more cunning, but Niv is more intellectual overall.
I know a little bit about bolas. But what makes Niv so special?
Quote from: Imdowd80 on September 03, 2012, 08:01:00 PM
I know a little bit about bolas. But what makes Niv so special?
Aside from bolas he's the only other dragon to have a superior intellect. He's izzet's leader and apparently a genius
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 07:54:13 PM
Then we have to ask "what is intelligence?"
Knowing of facts?
Ability to reason?
I'm going to say that Bolas is more cunning, but Niv is more intellectual overall.
I believe Bolas has the edge in both! While Niv controls a guild, Bolas has and still controls whole planes. Bolas has traveled through the planes amassing both intellegence and wisdom. As to yes "defeat" the five PW that joined against him only stalled him. They could not actually stop him. Plus through his intellect and wisdom he was able to gain control of two PW. {Sarkhon the Mad} and {Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas}.
That's merely a testament to Bolas's power, not intellect. Bolas is clearly better at manipulation of people, but while he's been out gallivanting and plotting Niv has been managing an entire guild in the pursuit of knowledge and information.
What would Bolas's intelligence be at if he couldn't planeswalk?
7
Quote from: Fishsticks123 on September 03, 2012, 10:02:28 PM
What would Bolas's intelligence be at if he couldn't planeswalk?
42
Million
So far all I'm seeing is people stating that bolas is more powerful than niv, but nothing that has anything to do with how he is more intelligent than niv. Yes bolas is stronger the niv, I dont think anyone will disagree with that. But as far as intelligence goes, I would have to say niv is smarter. Thats just my opinion tho.
Bit if he didn't planeswalk he wouldn't be nearly as smart. Niv is smart and from what we know can't planeswalk.
Quote from: Rtace88 on September 03, 2012, 10:10:12 PM
So far all I'm seeing is people stating that bolas is more powerful than niv, but nothing that has anything to do with how he is more intelligent than niv. Yes bolas is stronger the niv, I dont think anyone will disagree with that. But as far as intelligence goes, I would have to say niv is smarter. Thats just my opinion tho.
Since neither creature exists, all we have are opinions here. ð
Quote from: Testset on September 03, 2012, 10:19:15 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on September 03, 2012, 06:22:24 PM
I like now Niv doesn't have a spark. He's superiorly gifted and yet can't dominate outside of Ravnica. The Phyrexian and Eldrazi too, their power is vast enough to destroy worlds, but not powerful enough to defeat planeswalkers (multiple).
Funny thing is, {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} has a much easier time dealing with a Planeswalker than the reverse... ;)
Ummmmm..... Pretty sure power wise {Nicol Bolas} the PW would steal your Emrakul and make him his beeeatch!
Just saying.
As to the intellect Bolas has been amassing his knowledge since legends. While Niv might have more minions feeding him info. Bolas just goes out and gets it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that is part of Bolas's quest is to gain knowledge as he dances across the planes.
Now is Niv restricted to expanding his intelligence from just the plane of Ravnica or can the guild access the other planes? If so I think that truly limits his knowledge pool compared to Bolas.
I guess that depends on how close of friends niv and jace are, niv may know jace closely since I believe ravnica is where he is from. And in that case niv may have quite a bit of knowledge of planeswalking
Maybe Niv is a PW. It said he dissappeared for a while. Maybe that's what he was doing. Plus with the ability to Planeswalker their knowledge isn't just limited to their home plane. Also how did Bolas Ignite his spark anyway?
Bolas only amasses knowledge for the sake of power. What are so-and-so's abilities and vices? Who can I manipulate to gain power in this realm? What does Ajani eat for breakfast? Does Jace have any allergies?
Bolas seeks knowledge as a means to an end: absolute power and control. Niv (I believe) seeks knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Bolas has to spend much of his time dealing with his enemies, Niv just hangs out learnin'. ð
Who would you say is more intelligent: a tyrannical dictator or an advanced quantum physicist?
My vote is Niv.
Didn't Bolas lose much of his knowledge/power after the rift-healing (or whatever it was called)?
(by the way, I'm really digging this topic) ð
I would love it if Niv was the first character we see actually go from creature to PW. I know Bolas did this, but was more that he was always a PW, but they didn't have the "technology" to make him one at the time. To see Niv as a creature, then get his spark and show up as a PW in Gatecrash or "Sinker" would be great!
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:23:05 PM
Didn't Bolas lose much of his knowledge/power after the rift-healing (or whatever it was called)?
The Conflux. Helped Jester!!!
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 11:28:45 PM
So, if Niv-Mizzet is so smart, do you think he is even aware that other planes exist?
I don't know enoug about ravnican lore to say
Probably. If he didn't...
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:23:46 PM
(by the way, I'm really digging this topic) ð
I would love it if Niv was the first character we see actually go from creature to PW. I know Bolas did this, but was more that he was always a PW, but they didn't have the "technology" to make him one at the time. To see Niv as a creature, then get his spark and show up as a PW in Gatecrash or "Sinker" would be great!
That would be really cool.
And was did venser have his spark when he was first printed as a creature?
Was it Conflux? Or was that just the mending of the Shards of Alara? I thought it had to do with Karn giving up his spark to mend the rifts in Timespiral block or something.
I'm not up on my lore here. ð
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 11:28:45 PM
So, if Niv-Mizzet is so smart, do you think he is even aware that other planes exist?
I don't know enoug about ravnican lore to say
Sure, if he's buddy-buddies with Jace. He'd spill.
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 11:31:47 PM
I would say awareness is a rather large part of intelligence. When was the last time you saw an ignorant scientist?
Watch any national news network. You will find them there on a daily basis.
Quote from: smokin terry on September 03, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:23:46 PM
(by the way, I'm really digging this topic) ð
I would love it if Niv was the first character we see actually go from creature to PW. I know Bolas did this, but was more that he was always a PW, but they didn't have the "technology" to make him one at the time. To see Niv as a creature, then get his spark and show up as a PW in Gatecrash or "Sinker" would be great!
That would be really cool.
And was did venser have his spark when he was first printed as a creature?
Probs, but PW's hadn't come out yet.
Maybe this will help with the argument.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/planeswalkers.aspx?x=mtg/multiverse/planeswalkers/nicolbolas
As far as jace and niv being friends; I dont think they are. According to the RtR trailer that's on one of the Pax videos wizards posted jace is out to stop niv from whatever niv is trying to do.
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 11:36:59 PM
So, couldn't jace just teach him to planeswalk? I thought tibalt was taught by devils?
No, Tibbles infused himself with the devils, took a lot of pain, and when he did that his spark ignited. The devils didn't actually teach him
Quote from: Gummuh on September 03, 2012, 11:33:42 PM
Quote from: KangaRod on September 03, 2012, 11:31:47 PM
I would say awareness is a rather large part of intelligence. When was the last time you saw an ignorant scientist?
Watch any national news network. You will find them there on a daily basis.
This.
It defuses my argument a bit, but not all scientist are wise in many areas. You have watch their credentials.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:23:46 PM
(by the way, I'm really digging this topic) ð
I would love it if Niv was the first character we see actually go from creature to PW. I know Bolas did this, but was more that he was always a PW, but they didn't have the "technology" to make him one at the time. To see Niv as a creature, then get his spark and show up as a PW in Gatecrash or "Sinker" would be great!
Venser was the first creature after Nicol bolas to gain the spark, and don't forget Karn.
I teach primary grade students and I've met 1st graders smarter, relatively, for their age than many adults. I'd say Niv is chronologically a child compared to Nicol but has shown a greater proclivity for learning. So relatively speaking: Niv not Nic.
Quote from: Langku on September 04, 2012, 01:42:41 AM
I teach primary grade students and I've met 1st graders smarter, relatively, for their age than many adults. I'd say Niv is chronologically a child compared to Nicol but has shown a greater proclivity for learning. So relatively speaking: Niv not Nic.
Very well put.
Intelligence wise perhaps Niv has the highest iq. Perhaps...
Knowledge wise Nicol Bolas is still the undefeated champion. A being of such a long life and the ability to retain all information most definitly has the most vast knowledge pool.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:30:58 PM
Was it Conflux? Or was that just the mending of the Shards of Alara? I thought it had to do with Karn giving up his spark to mend the rifts in Timespiral block or something.
I'm not up on my lore here. ð
It was called 'the mending' that fixed the multiverse :)
And in terms of actually intelligence of raw thinking power I defiantely think niv has it. I mean he probably knows how to planeswalk without being one. Don't forget that izzet mages can manipulate time also.
Well jace doesn't tend to like dragons all to much does he lol.
I remembered Karn and Venser after I hit Post. ::) But we had them as creatures, then we don't see them for a LOOOOOOONG time, and then we get them as PWs. I still Think it would be cool to have a character transform in front of us, so to speak.
The Mending! Right! I'll say Bolas might have been more intelligent pre-mending, but post-mending it's Niv.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 10:52:42 AM
I remembered Karn and Venser after I hit Post. ::) But we had them as creatures, then we don't see them for a LOOOOOOONG time, and then we get them as PWs. I still Think it would be cool to have a character transform in front of us, so to speak.
The Mending! Right! I'll say Bolas might have been more intelligent pre-mending, but post-mending it's Niv.
It would be really cool to see niv gain a spark.
Quote from: smokin terry on September 04, 2012, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 10:52:42 AM
I remembered Karn and Venser after I hit Post. ::) But we had them as creatures, then we don't see them for a LOOOOOOONG time, and then we get them as PWs. I still Think it would be cool to have a character transform in front of us, so to speak.
The Mending! Right! I'll say Bolas might have been more intelligent pre-mending, but post-mending it's Niv.
It would be really cool to see niv gain a spark.
If Niv gained the spark or Planeswalk if he already has it would bring him to the attention of Bolas, which would be a bad thing. I do believe Niv knows this, therefore stays on Ravnica and amassing knowledge
Quote from: AgrusKos on September 03, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on September 03, 2012, 11:23:05 PM
Didn't Bolas lose much of his knowledge/power after the rift-healing (or whatever it was called)?
The Conflux. Helped Jester!!!
wrong it was the mending
which basically depowered planeswalkers to not god levels.
Quote from: Xanzurth on September 04, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Quote from: smokin terry on September 04, 2012, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 10:52:42 AM
I remembered Karn and Venser after I hit Post. ::) But we had them as creatures, then we don't see them for a LOOOOOOONG time, and then we get them as PWs. I still Think it would be cool to have a character transform in front of us, so to speak.
The Mending! Right! I'll say Bolas might have been more intelligent pre-mending, but post-mending it's Niv.
It would be really cool to see niv gain a spark.
If Niv gained the spark or Planeswalk if he already has it would bring him to the attention of Bolas, which would be a bad thing. I do believe Niv knows this, therefore stays on Ravnica and amassing knowledge
No way! Niv vs Bolas!! :D Bolas would probably win though, I don't know if Niv is much of a scrapper.
Don't need to be a scrapper just a bigger and better army and resources.
Quote from: Rass on September 04, 2012, 07:00:48 PM
Don't need to be a scrapper just a bigger and better army and resources.
If 5 PW couldnt stop him, guild from Ravnica has no chance. Remember Bolas was around with Urza and Urza didn't destroy him. That says something, to me at lest.
Ahhh yes, but that was all pre-mending. What about now? Did Bolas take on the team before or after the mending? I think after...
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 07:39:17 PM
Ahhh yes, but that was all pre-mending. What about now? Did Bolas take on the team before or after the mending? I think after...
I do believe after while he was weakened, other wise they wouldn't have even thought of attacking him.
Well, that whole motley crew are still fairly fresh to Planeswalking. Their no Ancient Dragon.
Still, I think Bolas would be a better fighter than Niv.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 08:00:23 PM
Well, that whole motley crew are still fairly fresh to Planeswalking. Their no Ancient Dragon.
Still, I think Bolas would be a better fighter than Niv.
In terms of age wouldn't Niv be considered a baby compared to Bolas. Pretty sure bolas has at least a few millennia on Niv.
Yeah Bolas is an Elder Dragon, while Niv is just a dragon wizard.
My magic memory voice is telling that it believes in the story line Bolas destroys the other elder dragons for thier knowledge and powers before he planeswalks for the first time. Please correct me if my memory is wrong.
Do we know how old Niv is?
The only "elders" in Mtg are the original Legends dragons. I can easily see Bolas kicking THEIR ðīs.
Being an elder isnt all that great. You could beat up most elders you know.
Except Clint Eastwood. He'd destroy you. ðīððĒðē
Before the mending, bolas had extreme amounts of knowledge and power over Niv, but after the mending, where bolas was weakened, Niv probably had more knowledge in the science/technical field than bolas, but bolas has more of a controlling, corrupting, agressive knowledge. Nicol bolas is by far more powerful, but niv may be smarter, even if he hasn't 'sparked' yet