Hi, so being satisfied with my MBC, I really want to start something different: mill. My brother likes mill so I want to make a deck that he can play at FNM, and I can play at home. It has to be perfect though. Given that requirement, it will not be finished until old stuff rotates.
Just tell me your suggestions on mill and I will appreciate it. Just a note: I do not want to rely on creatures to mill. Creatures can get removed easily as I know well ;) so no zombies. Also I may not run sword of body and mind, as you must pay 5 mana + the creature cost, hope it survives past summoning sickness, THEN hope it doesn't get blocked.
Though if you want to defend swords or zombies be my guest. If you give a good enough reason to run them I just might.
I will read this thread when I come back from college tomorrow...please consider all mill advice for me as I am by no means a mill expert. Even the simple suggestions will help! :)
I think you'll need a good amount of defensive creatures and control to slow things down long enough for mill. {Fog Bank}, {Archaeomancer} to reuse your mills and to chump. I still think {Jace's Phantasm} is good as either an early chump or a mid-late game finisher.
{Vanishment} goes great with mill. Post-Rav build, Azorius will bring some more stall tactics, but we won't see really good mill until Dimir shows up in Gatecrash.
Are you going totally creatureless mill? Because {Stern Mentor} isn't half bad. She makes a good blocker, and when paired with another wall can mill 4/turn.
I like {Shriekgeist} too. Low mana cost for a potential repeating mill effect, can be used as a chump blocker in an emergency even against a flying enemy, and can discourage an enemy from attacking with their flying creature, as they have to choose if they want to hold their attacker back to stop the extra mill.
{invisible stalker} plus your sword.
Well in any standard (or even casual)
if you can put in {Jace memory adept}
but seeing he's very high value and alas mythic he's nothing to build on.
{Increasing confusion} is a great cardofcourse. Nothing to combo it with but still. I recently started playing {Fog bank} with {Elguad shieldmate} but never tried it at fnm or off my kitchent table so far.
Its a bit slow but it gives great protection.
{Invisible stalker} + {Trepanation blade} always a solid hitter. {Runechanter pike} if you run many cards like {thought scour} and {mindsculpt}... I plea for you not to use Delver because i hate him. But you know, he's strong so worth mentioning...
Quote from: Gorzo on August 28, 2012, 02:47:25 AM
Are you going totally creatureless mill? Because {Stern Mentor} isn't half bad. She makes a good blocker, and when paired with another wall can mill 4/turn.
I like {Shriekgeist} too. Low mana cost for a potential repeating mill effect, can be used as a chump blocker in an emergency even against a flying enemy, and can discourage an enemy from attacking with their flying creature, as they have to choose if they want to hold their attacker back to stop the extra mill.
{Mindshrieker}?
Mind shrieker is nice too but requires mana dumping to be a good miller. I think it's better as a damage dealer than a mill card. If I'm going to dump mana into milling my opponent, it will be with increasing confusion or {sands of delerium}.
{Dream Twist}
Quote from: Gorzo on August 28, 2012, 03:12:36 AM
Mind shrieker is nice too but requires mana dumping to be a good miller. I think it's better as a damage dealer than a mill card. If I'm going to dump mana into milling my opponent, it will be with increasing confusion or {sands of delerium}.
True true. I totally forgor about the Sand! Its a must almost :D
I like mindshriek with trep blade though but since Coffe didnt want a creature based deck i agree that Shriekgeist would be best
Seriously consider using {undead alchemist}.
If you happen to come up against a creature heavy deck things get out of control super fast.
They have the interesting choice of having 60 cards to mill out or 20 life to lose if you swing with your zombie horde.
Also more zombies that mill when they die or enter the battlefield, are fantastic.
Played alongside true mill cards and artifacts it's something to cause concern.
I play mono blue for my zombie mill which also opens up things like {mana leak} and {vapor snag} etc. also {think twice} and {artful dodge} are great.
Some mill cards {dream twist}, {mind sculpt} etc
I feel like Mill isn't ready yet. It's best card is {Mind Sculpt} which is equivalent to 1 {Incinerate}. 4x {Sword of Body and Mind} is needed, and you gotta be able to put dmg through.
Just pure milling is too slow, you gotta make them discard 53 cards ASAP. Not an easy task. {Increasing Confusion} is mana intensive.
The only way I've ever seen it work with a {B}{U} with an insane Control suite, {Undead Alchemist}, Zombies and {Jace, Memory Adept} as the only mill card.
I suppose I should also mention that I use {curse of the bloody tome} and {jace's erasure} for some always ticking over mill action. Then refilling my hand with cards with stuff like {blue sun's zenith} and triggering more mill via erasure.
As already mentioned by several people, the jace plains walker is awesome. He mills for 10 when you drop him in, and demands to be dealt with before it happens again next turn.
Also if you want to use artifacts to mill, you still have a short amount of time for cards like {grindclock}, {mindcrank}, and a few other newer ones that tap for draw/mill. Can be used with {unwinding clock} for some every turn action too.
Control deck with jace should do the trick.
I've done GU ramp mill.
{deadeye navigator}
{primeval Titan}
{increasing confusion}
Multiple win cons in ^ deck
{otherworld atlas} + {jaces archivist} is pretty good too.
{howling mine} needed for turbo fog and a goOD mill deck
I think the key to a standard mill deck right now, would be to get 10 cards in your opponents graveyard, and beat the crap out of him with the {jaces phantasm}s. I posted a deck a while back in standard. I believe it was titled {agro mill}
Like many posters, I think a good mill deck should be capable of winning with damage too. One {Elixir of Immortality} becomes "gain 15 life" otherwise.
My mill deck is anything but standard but staples for my deck are {memory erosion}, {Sewer nemesis} and {undead alchemist}. But then again, I play casual.
Ok guys, I'm back. Thanks for all the suggestions. The vibe I'm getting is that mill isn't capable of doing its own thing yet, so have a secondary/side-by-side wincon of damage.
I know that's probably the case but I want to have almost no creatures. I am not disregarding creatures as a bad idea, I just want the challenge of making mill work on its own.
So as for Jace, I think I'll start with 2 of them. I don't want him in my opening hand, but probably want him to be on the field by turn 5 or 6. I intend to base the deck off of {Jace's Erasure}. Blue sun's will be a 1 of. Possibly a 2 of.
Fog bank will be nescesary, along with counterspells. I see this deck having {Rewind} as a 1-of, accompanied by 2 and 3-ofs of the more common counterspells.
I seem to be attracted to mono blue, though I think black and red might have some things to offer. Blue has replacements for any boardwipes white has, so I don't think white will be in the deck. Suggestions about black and red will be appreciated!
I know that I need to be able to get rid of my opponent's graveyard, so here's the dilema: {Tormod's Crypt} vs. {Nihil Spellbomb}. Obviously the real question here is: splash black for a little more card draw or spend one less mana to have the same effect (tormod's is a zero drop).
I see increasing confusion as a 2-of, because it has flashback and it steals a whole turn to use it. Also as a 2 of I see {Visions of Beyond}. it's a FANTASTIC card IF you are already up to speed on milling. I see it as a good mid-game card.
As for ponder, I don't see a reason to run it unless I have miracles. Multiple miracles. I would rather run think twice.
Soo any suggestions of what other cards to add, and what number of cards I should add, and suggestions saying I am totally screwing up are all welcome. :)
Mono blue, prolly not. White for walker and mass creature removal, yes.
Nihil spellbOMB yes.
Esper control mill? Best bet prolly.
{Ice cage} is surprisingly effective depending on the deck you're facing ofcourse but since you want no creatures it could be good if something slips by your counters. Just as a filler, nothing serious.
If you got a Tamiyo or 2 you could put them in for some more control and some awesome ulti combos. {Encrust} could help your defence too and has synergy with tamiyos 2 wich would in turn synergize with Jace ereasure. Just throwing out crap ideas here because my brain is kind of in cooldown mode ;D
Also crypt ftw. Just a simple graveyard blaster.
Quote from: Fenster on August 28, 2012, 01:03:52 PM
Also crypt ftw. Just a simple graveyard blaster.
Don't forget card draw too!
Quote from: Testset on August 28, 2012, 10:53:28 AM
The Dream Puppets deck from DOTP 2013 is an excellent example of monoblue mill. You'll just need to swap a few out to make it standard.
That deck only works against other slow decks in the game. Verse any of the current meta decks and it get stomped out in 5 turns. Additionally, {Jace's Erasure} is among the worst uses of {1}{U} in Magic. You get practically no value out of it.
{snapcaster Mage}
Quote from: Dudecore on August 28, 2012, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: Testset on August 28, 2012, 10:53:28 AM
The Dream Puppets deck from DOTP 2013 is an excellent example of monoblue mill. You'll just need to swap a few out to make it standard.
That deck only works against other slow decks in the game. Verse any of the current meta decks and it get stomped out in 5 turns. Additionally, {Jace's Erasure} is among the worst uses of {1}{U} in Magic. You get practically no value out of it.
{mind sculpt} is way better and you can snapcaster it back.
{Thought scour}
if not standard, {grimiore theif} soulbonded with {stern mentor} is a powerful mill combo
Problem in standrd with this deck is snapcaster mage. In standard your graveyard is part of your hand.
You're gonna love blue once Gatecrash comes, I can't wait for Dimir!!! I hope they reprint Glimpse =P
Right there with ya buddy. My two fav colors in one guild...why can't gatecrash come first!!??
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on August 28, 2012, 09:46:02 PM
You're gonna love blue once Gatecrash comes, I can't wait for Dimir!!! I hope they reprint Glimpse =P
{glimpse the unthinkable} would make mill pretty damn good especially with snapcaster around. Almost too good...
Quote from: Willthomjr on August 29, 2012, 02:53:43 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on August 28, 2012, 09:46:02 PM
You're gonna love blue once Gatecrash comes, I can't wait for Dimir!!! I hope they reprint Glimpse =P
{glimpse the unthinkable} would make mill pretty damn good especially with snapcaster around. Almost too good...
It would be equivalent to a REALLY good burn spell, like a miracle {Thunderous Wrath}.
I love mill, I love the concept and challenge. However I do feel that Innistrad and M13 have a long list of mill cards that are unplayable. 1 mana for 1 card milled is unreasonably bad. Milling does not change the board state,
If they made more cards like {Mind Sculpt}. It mills about 1/7th of an opponents deck, it's
edit: NOT overpowered, equivalent to an {Incinerate}. It would help make mill viable.
Yeah you are so right, when an opponent's life total is 60, 1 mana for 1 or 2 cards is pretty poor. I want {Mind Funeral}. :D
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on August 29, 2012, 10:51:02 AM
Yeah you are so right, when an opponent's life total is 60, 1 mana for 1 or 2 cards is pretty poor. I want {Mind Funeral}. :D
Well 53 and dropping each turn. ~45 by T8, depending on if they have card draw themselves.
Solar Flare could beat Mill. {Unburial Rites} has flashback, and can pretty easily get a fattie out of the Graveyard.