Touchy Subjects #2: Abortion *NFSW

[Coffee Vampire]

@piotor.  Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.

The problem with the rape scenario, which is an argument that pro-abortionists use often, is that it does not address whether or not the fetus is human or not. Here is why this is relevant: if the fetus is not a human, of course the rape scenario would be a valid argument. Why should a woman have to go through so much suffering just because she was already the victim of even more suffering? Suffering as a punishment for beig raped...not logical. However, ask yourself this. Just in your head: if the fetus is definitely a human, would it be logical to kill this human because it causes the mother suffering? Also, would it be constitutional, considering all humans are created equal? You see, if the fetus is a human, then killing it because it causes a woman pain would be no different than a mother killing a toddler, teenager, or adult because they caused her pain in some way.

So the question is not: "does the mother have the right to choose?" Of course she does. But obviously no one in America has the right to choose to kill a human being. This means that the question is:

"What is the unborn?"

It is extremely simple: if the fetus is human, it has the right to live; if the fetus is not human, it does not have the right to live.

Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.

If the mother is raped, she is going to get it resolved super fast, and conscious thought wouldn't have begun to happen yet, so it is not a human by my standards yet.  I she waits until 2 weeks before her due date (exaggerating here) then no.  She decided to not do anything about it, and now it's a human.

So, you admit that at some point while it is still in the womb, it becomes human. As to when that is, you say it is when the fetus gains conscience.

The thing you have to realize is that consciousness is not some mythical awarness that makes us who we are. Consciousness is a function performed by our brain cells that lets us know what is going on. According to you, consciousness is what makes a fetus human. So, what if a fetus has a mental problem that prevents it from being conscious. Obviously it won't die if that's the only thing wrong with it. It is born. Still unconscious, but alive. By your standards. It still isn't human. This is why your argument is flawed.

Saying that a fetus becomes human when it gains consciousness is like saying it becomes a human when it grows teeth. Or grows a toungue. Or gains the ability to move. All are levels of development.

To sum it up for you: gaining consciousness is simply a milestone in development for a fetus. Not some point where it suddenly becomes human, just because its brain is aware of things that it was not aware of before.

Like I said before, being less developed then a baby, a teen, or an adult does not make a fetus less human then the rest. All of these I listed are at different stages of life. At no point in time did any become human. Growing a particular brain cell that makes you aware of your surroundings does not unlock the human achievement. It's just like growing legs. Going through puberty. Growing facial hair. All humans grow, and there is no reason to discriminate against a fetus by calling it non-human, just because it is at a smaller stage of growth than someone outside the womb.

And to the argument that a woman has the right to choose:

I agree with your argument. Women do have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. Unfortunately, a fetus is not a woman's body. It is another person. A human. Read this carefully:

If you are a mother, and you think that murder is wrong, then the ONLY way you can be for abortion is by knowing that a fetus is NOT human. Therefore, to prove that abortion is right, you must prove that a fetus is NOT human.

Proving that women have the right to do what they wish to their bodies is IRRELEVANT. What must be proven is that a pregnant woman is NOT pregnant with a human being.

Given these logically sound facts, it is concluded that stating a woman's right to her own body is an illogical argument for abortion, unless you also support murder.

What must be proven is that a fetus is not human. That is all it takes. However, all of logic says that a fetus is a human.

[Piotr]

Until though or consciousness or some sort of brain function happens, we are just a group of cells being controlled by cells.  We aren't capable of anything that defines us as human

What defines us as human? What sort of brain function happens?

I am a group of cells being controlled by cells, this is a scientific fact. So was my fetus. I shared all the cells with my fetus. If my fatus wasn't me, then what was it? If the fetus was me, then I believe I'm human and always was.

[The Pyromancer]

Science- Life starts at conception
Theology- it is never morally acceptable to murder another human being

=abortion is always morally wrong.

My case has been stated.

[The Pyromancer]

The question of abortion is not in whether or not the mother has the right to choose. The question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human. If it is not a human, then of course the mother, who is forced to grow fat and endure pain because of this thing, should be able to choose to get rid of it. On the other hand, if a fetus is a human, then there is absolutely no one who can claim that it is the mother's right to choose to get rid of it. That's because it would be like a mother drowning her infant because the infant was ruining her good mood with his crying. That being said, let's see what seperates a fetus from a grown man or woman. And you can the decision as to whether or not these differences are enough to claim that a fetus is not human, and therefore can be disposed of as garbage. As it turns out, there are four things that seperate a fetus from you and me.

1: size. A fetus is much smaller than even a toddler. You could a fetus in the palm of your hand. So, does this difference make it less human than you? Are you more of a human than your friend who is shorter than you, or is your father more human than you because he is larger than you? Is a fetus less of a human than a toddler because it is smaller? Maybe.

2: level of development. A fetus is less developed than a born baby, a toddler, and you and me. A fetus cannot even talk yet. A fetus cannot walk either. Maybe that makes it less human. Is an 18-year old leas human than a fully developed man? Are you more human than your younger sibling? The brain does not finish developing until the thirties. If level of development is something that stops a fetus from being human, these are questions that should be answered.

3: level of dependance. A fetus is pretty much the definition of dependant. A fetus needs to be attatched to the mother for now, or it will obviously die. This looks like a deciding factor, making a fetus not a human. But let's make sure. That one guy in the hospital who can't breath or eat or walk without assistance. Now let's get somethig straight here: we are talking about whether or not this man is human. Not whether or not he should live. That's another debate entirely. So anyways, getting back. This guy. He will never walk. He will never feed himself. He will never breath by himself. Oh, and of course he can't talk. Is he less human are? What about you? What if you live with your parents. They feed you. They buy your singles. Without them you would perish. Maybe you are not as human as you thought.

4: location. Location location location. A fetus is trapped inside of a womb. Well for now, anyways. A fetus cannot really change that fact either. Perhaps the fact that it is in the location of a womb makes it less human, and therefore disposable. Maybe that is it. Let's see, how about a trick question? Ok great. So there are two twenty-somethings. Both dirt poor. One is in Africa and one is in Russia. Neither can change their location, because they lack the means. Which is more human than the other? Ah, I warned you. It's a trick question. They are both human. Okay here's another question. Not a trick question. Mr. Bob lives in China, but Mr. Bob is rich and can go where he pleases. However, Mr. Fetus is not so fortunate. He is trapped in a dark and confined place, nof yet able to go where he pleases. Based on location, which one is more human? Decide.

So, are any of those reasons strong enough to support the claim that a fetus is not human, but somethig else entirely? Something that should be killed if it becomes an inconvenience?

What is the unborn? According to logic, human. What do you think? This post is not meant to feed the fire for anti-abortionists, making them feel all good inside. This post isn't meant to anger people that think abortion is OK either. This post presents the facts to you, the jury. The judge. The exocutioner.

I heard this exact argument from a man who came to our high school to give a speech. I agree with you. Human is human. Murder is murder. Abortion is wrong in nearly all cases.

[Moneekahh]

The question of abortion is not in whether or not the mother has the right to choose. The question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human. If it is not a human, then of course the mother, who is forced to grow fat and endure pain because of this thing, should be able to choose to get rid of it. On the other hand, if a fetus is a human, then there is absolutely no one who can claim that it is the mother's right to choose to get rid of it. That's because it would be like a mother drowning her infant because the infant was ruining her good mood with his crying. That being said, let's see what seperates a fetus from a grown man or woman. And you can the decision as to whether or not these differences are enough to claim that a fetus is not human, and therefore can be disposed of as garbage. As it turns out, there are four things that seperate a fetus from you and me.

1: size. A fetus is much smaller than even a toddler. You could a fetus in the palm of your hand. So, does this difference make it less human than you? Are you more of a human than your friend who is shorter than you, or is your father more human than you because he is larger than you? Is a fetus less of a human than a toddler because it is smaller? Maybe.

2: level of development. A fetus is less developed than a born baby, a toddler, and you and me. A fetus cannot even talk yet. A fetus cannot walk either. Maybe that makes it less human. Is an 18-year old leas human than a fully developed man? Are you more human than your younger sibling? The brain does not finish developing until the thirties. If level of development is something that stops a fetus from being human, these are questions that should be answered.

3: level of dependance. A fetus is pretty much the definition of dependant. A fetus needs to be attatched to the mother for now, or it will obviously die. This looks like a deciding factor, making a fetus not a human. But let's make sure. That one guy in the hospital who can't breath or eat or walk without assistance. Now let's get somethig straight here: we are talking about whether or not this man is human. Not whether or not he should live. That's another debate entirely. So anyways, getting back. This guy. He will never walk. He will never feed himself. He will never breath by himself. Oh, and of course he can't talk. Is he less human are? What about you? What if you live with your parents. They feed you. They buy your singles. Without them you would perish. Maybe you are not as human as you thought.

4: location. Location location location. A fetus is trapped inside of a womb. Well for now, anyways. A fetus cannot really change that fact either. Perhaps the fact that it is in the location of a womb makes it less human, and therefore disposable. Maybe that is it. Let's see, how about a trick question? Ok great. So there are two twenty-somethings. Both dirt poor. One is in Africa and one is in Russia. Neither can change their location, because they lack the means. Which is more human than the other? Ah, I warned you. It's a trick question. They are both human. Okay here's another question. Not a trick question. Mr. Bob lives in China, but Mr. Bob is rich and can go where he pleases. However, Mr. Fetus is not so fortunate. He is trapped in a dark and confined place, nof yet able to go where he pleases. Based on location, which one is more human? Decide.

So, are any of those reasons strong enough to support the claim that a fetus is not human, but somethig else entirely? Something that should be killed if it becomes an inconvenience?

What is the unborn? According to logic, human. What do you think? This post is not meant to feed the fire for anti-abortionists, making them feel all good inside. This post isn't meant to anger people that think abortion is OK either. This post presents the facts to you, the jury. The judge. The exocutioner.

I heard this exact argument from a man who came to our high school to give a speech. I agree with you. Human is human. Murder is murder. Abortion is wrong in nearly all cases.

In which cases is it not "wrong", in your opinion?

[Coffee Vampire]

There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.

However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

I think that because there are circumstances where abortion is necessary for someone's survival and because I am strongly against people using law to force their religion on others...I am pro choice.

[Coffee Vampire]

It pains me when people say that the prolifes are irrelevant because they just try to force religion. Let me ask you a question: at what point in this entire thread did I even mention religion in the slightest to enforce any arguments at all? It's got zero, nothing to do with religion. Religion has absolutely no significance whatsoever when it comes to the abortion argument. Assuming we are all against the murder of innocent humans, then this is the only question that matters:

Is the fetus human?

If yes, then all who think murdering an innocent human is wrong will think abortion is wrong. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is pure logic.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

I think I may have been misunderstood. When I said "religion" I guess I meant "system of belief". Beliefs are where we determine values of human life and morality. So yes, this has to do with your "belief system". A woman contemplating an abortion is making one of the hardest choices in her life, let her make it without other people's input. That being said I am against using abortion regularly as a form of birth control but we can't make a '3 strikes you're out' type law.

A lot of the conflicts about abortion come from religious institutions.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-connection-between-abortion-and-religion.htm

[Coffee Vampire]

I think I may have been misunderstood. When I said "religion" I guess I meant "system of belief". Beliefs are where we determine values of human life and morality. So yes, this has to do with your "belief system". A woman contemplating an abortion is making one of the hardest choices in her life, let her make it without other people's input. That being said I am against using abortion regularly as a form of birth control but we can't make a '3 strikes you're out' type law.

Religion is much different than what you call a belief system. Everyone has what you are talking about, everyone has things that they believe. But not everyone has a religion. Two different things. Now a belief system can contain a religion the same way a glass can contain water. But like a glass, someome's belief system is not guarenteed to hold a certain thing, like a religion.

That being said, one thing I cannot stress enough: there are only two beliefs that matter when arguing about abortion.

Number one: is murder okay? I am assuming everyone here does not think that murder is okay. Notice that we all here hold different religions and "belief systems", but we all can agree that it's not okay to murder (kill an innocent human being).

Number two: is the fetus human? Since everyone already agrees with question number one, it is this question that matters most. Again, it has nothing to do with religion. Just logic. Is it more logical that a fetus is a human or is it more logical that it isn't one? Simple. No religion involved, or biased belief systems.

A lot of the conflicts about abortion come from religious institutions.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-connection-between-abortion-and-religion.htm

Just because religious people are the source of some abortion arguments is no reason to believe that religion is what the argument is centered on. When fighting over who is right, people offen focus on what religion their opponents hold rather than the conflict itself. 

As I have expressed (but it is useful to stress as much as is needed), abortion arguments are not about a mother's rights or emotions. They are about whether a fetus is human or not.

Answer this: if, in a magical land, a fetus is a human, and everyone knows it (like, it's in the freaking science books and no longer a "hot topic debate"), would a mother's enotions or rights justify her killing a human? It would be no different than killing her teen son, or any other human being. Murder, according to the American justice system.

So, back to reality. See now that if a fetus really is human, the fact that a mother has the right to her own body, or the fact that it is an emotional time for her is utterly irrelevant. This is why you must prove that a fetus isn't human, instead of talking about a woman's rights, emotions, or religion.

[YumiBug]

Hi, Mommy....I'm your baby. You don't know me yet, I'm only a fewweeks old. You're going to find out about me soon, though, I promise.Let me tell you some things about me. My name is John, and I've gotbeautiful brown eyes and black hair. Well, I don't have it yet, but Iwill when I'm born. I'm going to be your only child, and you'll call meyour one and only. I'm going to grow up without a daddy mostly, but wehave each other. We'll help each other, and love each other. I want tobe a doctor when I grow up.You found out about me today, Mommy! You were so excited, you couldn'twait to tell everyone. All you could do all day was smile, and life wasperfect. You have a beautiful smile, Mommy. It will be the first face Iwill see in my life, and it will be the best thing I see in my life. Iknow it already.Today was the day you told Daddy. You were so excited to tell him aboutme! ...He wasn't happy, Mommy. He kind of got angry. I don't think thatyou noticed, but he did. He started to talk about something calledwedlock, and money, and bills, and stuff I don't think I understandyet. You were still happy, though, so it was okay. Then he didsomething scary, Mommy. He hit you. I could feel you fall backward, andyour hands flying up to protect me. I was okay... but I was very sadfor you. You were crying then, Mommy. That's a sound I don't like. Itdoesn't make me feel good. It made me cry, too. He said sorry after,and he hugged you again. You forgave him, Mommy, but I'm not sure if Ido. It wasn't right. You say he loves you... why would he hurt you? Idon't like it, Mommy.Finally, you can see me! Your stomach is a little bit bigger, andyou're so proud of me! You went out with your mommy to buy new clothes,and you were so so so happy. You sing to me, too. You have the mostbeautiful voice in the whole wide world. When you sing is when I'mhappiest. And you talk to me, and I feel safe. So safe. You just waitand see, Mommy. When I am born I will be perfect just for you. I willmake you proud, and I will love you with all of my heart.I can move my hands and feet now, Mommy. I do it because you put yourhands on your belly to feel me, and I giggle. You giggle, too. I loveyou, Mommy.Daddy came to see you today, Mommy. I got really scared. He was actingfunny and he wasn't talking right. He said he didn't want you. I don'tknow why, but that's what he said. And he hit you again. I got angry,Mommy. When I grow up I promise I won't let you get hurt! I promise toprotect you. Daddy is bad. I don't care if you think that he is a goodperson, I think he's bad. But he hit you, and he said he didn't wantus. He doesn't like me. Why doesn't he like me, Mommy?You didn't talk to me tonight, Mommy. Is everything okay?It's been three days since you saw Daddy. You haven't talked to me ortouched me or anything since that. Don't you still love me, Mommy? Istill love you. I think you feel sad. The only time I feel you is whenyou sleep. You sleep funny, kind of curled up on your side. And you hugme with your arms, and I feel safe and warm again. Why don't you dothat when you're awake, any more?I'm 21 weeks old today, Mommy. Aren't you proud of me? We're goingsomewhere today, and it's somewhere new. I'm excited. It looks like ahospital, too. I want to be a doctor when I grow up, Mommy. Did I tellyou that? I hope you're as excited as I am. I can't wait....Mommy, I'm getting scared. Your heart is still beating, but I don'tknow what you are thinking. The doctor is talking to you. I thinksomething's going to happen soon. I'm really, really, really scared,Mommy. Please tell me you love me. Then I will feel safe again. I loveyou!Mommy, what are they doing to me!? It hurts! Please make them stop! Itfeels bad! Please, Mommy, please please help me! Make them stop!Don't worry Mommy, I'm safe. I'm in heaven with the angels now. Theytold me what you did, and they said it's called an abortion.Why, Mommy? Why did you do it? Don't you love me any more? Why did youget rid of me? I'm really, really, really sorry if I did somethingwrong, Mommy. I love you, Mommy! I love you with all of my heart. Whydon't you love me? What did I do to deserve what they did to me? I wantto live, Mommy! Please! It really, really hurts to see you not careabout me, and not talk to me. Didn't I love you enough? Please sayyou'll keep me, Mommy! I want to live smile and watch the clouds andsee your face and grow up and be a doctor. I don't want to be here, Iwant you to love me again! I'm really really really sorry if I didsomething wrong. I love you!I love you, Mommy.Every abortion is just...
One more heart that was stopped.Two more eyes that will never see.Two more hands that will never touch.
Two more legs that will never run.One more mouth that will never speak.
-Anonymous

[Piotr]

Very nice, but this is just art of fiction. We do not know what exactly unborn human feels. We do know with close to 1 probability that all living things want to live, self preservation instinct is part of life. Unborn human is alive.

[Birdbrain]

I want to ask a question...are pre-mature babies humans? At what point does a fetus start being a human, and a human stop being a fetus? I was born twenty days after the scedualed due date. Was I still a fetus seven or eight days after my due date?
Fetuses get there sensory organs pretty darn early. Less than a month after conception. Research shows babies begin to learn language in the womb. Heck, even the seed is a living organism. Arnt even bactirea considered living organisms? This leads me to belive on conclusion...humans are humans upon conception. Yes I know there are instances were abortion would be nessicary...it makes me sad too. But I am über pro-life. And wish there was another way to save the mother in those circumstances besides abortion

[Birdbrain]

If only green magic actualy existed, we would be able to find an awnser through that

[Piotr]

I think blue is better at {answering questions}.