Touchy Subjects #2: Abortion *NFSW

I believe abortion is horrible. I used to be fine with it, until my first wife had one. She didn't tell me she was pregnant. I found out 2 weeks after it happened while going through the bank statement. Her reason, having a baby would mess up her life. She was in college and she would have had to drop out and put her life on hold. I divorced her because of this, couldn't take her murdering my child. My current wife is now pregnant with our second child. I just got to see him and hear his heart beat yesterday. Anyone can say they're for abortion. See how you feel about it when it's YOURS

Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM

There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.

However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.

If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion?  (Not arguing, honest question)

Abortion is anything but humane, mate, and I'm not talking about philosophy here. Google for the gory details if you really have to.

Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM

There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.

However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.

If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion?  (Not arguing, honest question)

That is a good question. Here's my answer:

If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.

Hi, Mommy.…I’m your baby. You don’t know me yet, I’m only a fewweeks old. You’re going to find out about me soon, though, I promise.Let me tell you some things about me. My name is John, and I’ve gotbeautiful brown eyes and black hair. Well, I don’t have it yet, but Iwill when I’m born. I’m going to be your only child, and you’ll call meyour one and only. I’m going to grow up without a daddy mostly, but wehave each other. We’ll help each other, and love each other. I want tobe a doctor when I grow up.You found out about me today, Mommy! You were so excited, you couldn’twait to tell everyone. All you could do all day was smile, and life wasperfect. You have a beautiful smile, Mommy. It will be the first face Iwill see in my life, and it will be the best thing I see in my life. Iknow it already.Today was the day you told Daddy. You were so excited to tell him aboutme! …He wasn’t happy, Mommy. He kind of got angry. I don’t think thatyou noticed, but he did. He started to talk about something calledwedlock, and money, and bills, and stuff I don’t think I understandyet. You were still happy, though, so it was okay. Then he didsomething scary, Mommy. He hit you. I could feel you fall backward, andyour hands flying up to protect me. I was okay… but I was very sadfor you. You were crying then, Mommy. That’s a sound I don’t like. Itdoesn’t make me feel good. It made me cry, too. He said sorry after,and he hugged you again. You forgave him, Mommy, but I’m not sure if Ido. It wasn’t right. You say he loves you… why would he hurt you? Idon’t like it, Mommy.Finally, you can see me! Your stomach is a little bit bigger, andyou’re so proud of me! You went out with your mommy to buy new clothes,and you were so so so happy. You sing to me, too. You have the mostbeautiful voice in the whole wide world. When you sing is when I’mhappiest. And you talk to me, and I feel safe. So safe. You just waitand see, Mommy. When I am born I will be perfect just for you. I willmake you proud, and I will love you with all of my heart.I can move my hands and feet now, Mommy. I do it because you put yourhands on your belly to feel me, and I giggle. You giggle, too. I loveyou, Mommy.Daddy came to see you today, Mommy. I got really scared. He was actingfunny and he wasn’t talking right. He said he didn’t want you. I don’tknow why, but that’s what he said. And he hit you again. I got angry,Mommy. When I grow up I promise I won’t let you get hurt! I promise toprotect you. Daddy is bad. I don’t care if you think that he is a goodperson, I think he’s bad. But he hit you, and he said he didn’t wantus. He doesn’t like me. Why doesn’t he like me, Mommy?You didn’t talk to me tonight, Mommy. Is everything okay?It’s been three days since you saw Daddy. You haven’t talked to me ortouched me or anything since that. Don’t you still love me, Mommy? Istill love you. I think you feel sad. The only time I feel you is whenyou sleep. You sleep funny, kind of curled up on your side. And you hugme with your arms, and I feel safe and warm again. Why don’t you dothat when you’re awake, any more?I’m 21 weeks old today, Mommy. Aren’t you proud of me? We’re goingsomewhere today, and it’s somewhere new. I’m excited. It looks like ahospital, too. I want to be a doctor when I grow up, Mommy. Did I tellyou that? I hope you’re as excited as I am. I can’t wait.…Mommy, I’m getting scared. Your heart is still beating, but I don’tknow what you are thinking. The doctor is talking to you. I thinksomething’s going to happen soon. I’m really, really, really scared,Mommy. Please tell me you love me. Then I will feel safe again. I loveyou!Mommy, what are they doing to me!? It hurts! Please make them stop! Itfeels bad! Please, Mommy, please please help me! Make them stop!Don’t worry Mommy, I’m safe. I’m in heaven with the angels now. Theytold me what you did, and they said it’s called an abortion.Why, Mommy? Why did you do it? Don’t you love me any more? Why did youget rid of me? I’m really, really, really sorry if I did somethingwrong, Mommy. I love you, Mommy! I love you with all of my heart. Whydon’t you love me? What did I do to deserve what they did to me? I wantto live, Mommy! Please! It really, really hurts to see you not careabout me, and not talk to me. Didn’t I love you enough? Please sayyou’ll keep me, Mommy! I want to live smile and watch the clouds andsee your face and grow up and be a doctor. I don’t want to be here, Iwant you to love me again! I’m really really really sorry if I didsomething wrong. I love you!I love you, Mommy.Every abortion is just…
One more heart that was stopped.Two more eyes that will never see.Two more hands that will never touch.
Two more legs that will never run.One more mouth that will never speak.
-Anonymous

Heartfelt. Work on spacing!

I think the poem is nice, but it doesn't contribute much since it only exists to make people who are already against abortion feel better about themselves. It sounds really cynical I know, but it just uses emotional content to fuel minds already set against against abortion. I think it's more helpful to present logical arguments to support your claims. I don't think it's stupid, but it is better used on an anti-abortionist forum than in a debate thread.

Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM

Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM

There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.

However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.

If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion?  (Not arguing, honest question)

That is a good question. Here's my answer:

If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.

What if the fetus got messed up from medicin and was born with life long problems because of the medicin.

Quote from: Coffee Vampire on August 01, 2013, 10:51:59 PM

Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM

Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM

There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.

However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.

If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion?  (Not arguing, honest question)

That is a good question. Here's my answer:

If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.

What if the fetus got messed up from medicin and was born with life long problems because of the medicin.

That is another good question.

Then that is very unfortunate. But do you know what else sucks? Beig dead. Would you say that unless a fetus has no forseeable problems, it should be aborted? Just because the possibility exists that a fetus will be born with problems, like retardation or some mutation, that does not justify killing.

Here is a scenario. I see a man lose his wife and job. Why? Because he lost his legs in a car accident. His wife turned out to be not so loyal, and he couldn't do his job anymore. I look at this guy, and make the judgement that he would be better off dead. Him being alive would probably just be an inconvenience to himself and others. So I kill him.

Here is another scenario. I have this fetus growing inside of me. I am currently on meds, or I will die from a disease. Giving birth to this fetus won't kill me, but here's the thing: my doctor said that my fetus will probably lose his legs if I give birth to it. That's the effect of my meds. My baby being alive will only be an invonvenience to everyone. I make the judgement call and kill it.

Now, what was different about the scenarios? Both scenarios depict victims of circumstances beyond their control. One had a car crash into him the other was mutated by medicine.

One person killed was fully grown, the other was not. Was the fetus less human than the man because of this?
One did not depend on his mother, the other still did. Was the fetus less human than the man because of this?
One was in a city, the other in te womb of a mother. Was the fetus less human than the man because they were in different locations?

Even if you think that someone else probably shouldn't live, it doesn't give you the right to make that decision.

Against abortion. If the girl doesn't want the baby. The least she could do is put it up for adoption. But wait, then her parents might be mad at her for being pregnant. So what, her stupid decision got her into the mess. She doesn't have to kill the baby for it.

It's one thing to abort a few days after intercourse or so. Its a whole new ball game to abort at six to nine months or right after the baby is born. In china they take the babies and drop them in buckets of water to drown. And one abortion doctor keeps parts as trophies of the babies he killed. Isn't that takin it to far?

Against abortion. If the girl doesn't want the baby. The least she could do is put it up for adoption. But wait, then her parents might be mad at her for being pregnant. So what, her stupid decision got her into the mess. She doesn't have to kill the baby for it.

I love how you absolve the male who got her pregnant of all responsibility, totally not his fault if he didn't use birth control.

Carrying the pregnancy to term, particularly in what I presume is a high school situation since you imply that she lives with her parents, only leads her to be socially ostracized and put at a disadvantage. She isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.

It's one thing to abort a few days after intercourse or so. Its a whole new ball game to abort at six to nine months or right after the baby is born. In china they take the babies and drop them in buckets of water to drown. And one abortion doctor keeps parts as trophies of the babies he killed. Isn't that takin it to far?

Most women don't know they're pregnant until a few weeks after intercourse, so it's almost impossible to abort in the first few days beyond the 'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.

You cannot perform an abortion after birth, that is infanticide (murder), as is the Chinese example. How are those two even relevant to abortion beyond being examples of the result of poor/no access to abortions?

Would love to see how this abortion doctor that publicly keeps these 'trophies' and wasn't thrown out by the medical community, mind posting the story/source?

She isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.

According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.

'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.

What is definition of an abortion?

abortion is ridding yoursel of an unborn fetus. Or guilt. For a story based on a true one. Watch October Baby. It's on netflix. I just don't support abortion but I don't want to make enemies either. So I'll refrain from postin any more here. In case I get PO'd.

The boy is just as guilty to thouh. I honestl didn think about that at that point. Not changing tune.