Discussion about Ultimate Law

Trials
Down
Piotr
User 100
January 26, 2013, 10:48:05 AM
I think our law is complete ;)



Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 10:51:46 AM by Piotr
Coffee Vampire
Boss 100
January 26, 2013, 04:04:49 PM
It's pretty straightforward, especially with the commentary. It's easy to follow unless you're up to no good and you know it. I'd also say it is complete.



Umbra
User -10
April 01, 2013, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: Piotr on January 26, 2013, 10:48:05 AM
I think our law is complete

Can we start calling it our creed?



Piotr
User 100
April 04, 2013, 07:19:05 AM
I think our law is complete ;)

Can we start calling it our creed?

It is free to use however you please http://ultimatelaw.org



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 06:26:34 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?



Keyeto
Boss 100
May 11, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?
I don't believe so. For example, if I thought you were a horrible person, I could say it in a non-aggressive way, like "Piotr, I think our morals are quite different" or something like that.

On the other hand, I could say "Piotr, you're a .loving. disgusting human being." Now, if I actually thought that (which, of course, I don't)  I would be telling the truth, but would be doing so in a way to intentionally cause you harm. This would go against iMtG Law.



Gorzo
Boss 100
May 11, 2013, 06:51:45 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?

Logically no, not as it stands now. There are always situations in which truth can potentially be harmful, or perhaps in some other way go against iMtG law.

"Honey, do I look fat in this dress?"

Truth: "Yes, dear, you look like a cow that just ate a blimp." This truth break other laws. Notably "Do not harm" and "do not do to others as you do not wish to be done to you."

But by lying as saying she looks good in it, can also be considered harmful (she'll go out looking terrible and potentially become horribly embarrassed by the children at the sushi restaurant you're going to all scream "Godzilla!")

Thus we get a logical paradox.

What should one do in these situations? Well, they are pretty case-by-case, but using the ultimate, ultimate law (use logic), you can usually find the least-harmful course of action and the best results

What I would say in this example: "What about that green one with the things on the side*? You look really good in that one."

Didn't quite answer truthfully, in that I did not tell her how bad she looked, but I didn't lie either. Did my best to offer a solution that is best for everyone, without harming anyone.

*Im pulling these dress details out of my butt. I have no idea where this is coming from.



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 06:55:05 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?
I don't believe so. For example, if I thought you were a horrible person, I could say it in a non-aggressive way, like "Piotr, I think our morals are quite different" or something like that.

On the other hand, I could say "Piotr, you're a .loving. disgusting human being." Now, if I actually thought that (which, of course, I don't)  I would be telling the truth, but would be doing so in a way to intentionally cause you harm. This would go against iMtG Law.

I'm not sure I'm convinced: what you believe to be true may not always be so. Ones belief does not make truth, does it? We need some logic, some objectivity, some science. Can you give me a definition of a, hmm, disgusting human being' other than 'Piotr is an example of a disgusting human being', please?



Keyeto
Boss 100
May 11, 2013, 07:01:25 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?
I don't believe so. For example, if I thought you were a horrible person, I could say it in a non-aggressive way, like "Piotr, I think our morals are quite different" or something like that.

On the other hand, I could say "Piotr, you're a .loving. disgusting human being." Now, if I actually thought that (which, of course, I don't)  I would be telling the truth, but would be doing so in a way to intentionally cause you harm. This would go against iMtG Law.

I'm not sure I'm convinced: what you believe to be true may not always be so. Ones belief does not make truth, does it? We need some logic, some objectivity, some science. Can you give me a definition of a, hmm, disgusting human being' other than 'Piotr is an example of a disgusting human being', please?
Hmm, good point. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. This should be better:

If I told somebody "I think you are a worthless, disgusting human being" I could very well be telling the truth (so long as I believe they are a horrible person), but doing so in a way that is intended to cause harm.

I think truth in general is a good way to go, as long as it doesn't go against the law in its entirety (do not harm, for example).



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 07:05:46 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?

Logically no, not as it stands now. There are always situations in which truth can potentially be harmful, or perhaps in some other way go against iMtG law.

"Honey, do I look fat in this dress?"

Truth: "Yes, dear, you look like a cow that just ate a blimp." This truth break other laws. Notably "Do not harm" and "do not do to others as you do not wish to be done to you."

But by lying as saying she looks good in it, can also be considered harmful (she'll go out looking terrible and potentially become horribly embarrassed by the children at the sushi restaurant you're going to all scream "Godzilla!")

Thus we get a logical paradox.

What should one do in these situations? Well, they are pretty case-by-case, but using the ultimate, ultimate law (use logic), you can usually find the least-harmful course of action and the best results

What I would say in this example: "What about that green one with the things on the side*? You look really good in that one."

Didn't quite answer truthfully, in that I did not tell her how bad she looked, but I didn't lie either. Did my best to offer a solution that is best for everyone, without harming anyone.

*Im pulling these dress details out of my butt. I have no idea where this is coming from.

Lesser of two evils, I think I'm pretty much convinced. Please note that in your example, you didn't answer the question, you did answer a different question. This is pretty much the same as keeping your mouth shut. It is difficult to lie or tell the truth while not saying anything ;)



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 07:10:28 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?
I don't believe so. For example, if I thought you were a horrible person, I could say it in a non-aggressive way, like "Piotr, I think our morals are quite different" or something like that.

On the other hand, I could say "Piotr, you're a .loving. disgusting human being." Now, if I actually thought that (which, of course, I don't)  I would be telling the truth, but would be doing so in a way to intentionally cause you harm. This would go against iMtG Law.

I'm not sure I'm convinced: what you believe to be true may not always be so. Ones belief does not make truth, does it? We need some logic, some objectivity, some science. Can you give me a definition of a, hmm, disgusting human being' other than 'Piotr is an example of a disgusting human being', please?
Hmm, good point. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. This should be better:

If I told somebody "I think you are a worthless, disgusting human being" I could very well be telling the truth (so long as I believe they are a horrible person), but doing so in a way that is intended to cause harm.

I think truth in general is a good way to go, as long as it doesn't go against the law in its entirety (do not harm, for example).

Hmm, how about the other way round: can I get offended when you call me Piotr, if you intended to insult me by calling me with my name?



Keyeto
Boss 100
May 11, 2013, 07:20:42 PM
Is it always legal to tell a truth?
I don't believe so. For example, if I thought you were a horrible person, I could say it in a non-aggressive way, like "Piotr, I think our morals are quite different" or something like that.

On the other hand, I could say "Piotr, you're a .loving. disgusting human being." Now, if I actually thought that (which, of course, I don't)  I would be telling the truth, but would be doing so in a way to intentionally cause you harm. This would go against iMtG Law.

I'm not sure I'm convinced: what you believe to be true may not always be so. Ones belief does not make truth, does it? We need some logic, some objectivity, some science. Can you give me a definition of a, hmm, disgusting human being' other than 'Piotr is an example of a disgusting human being', please?
Hmm, good point. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. This should be better:

If I told somebody "I think you are a worthless, disgusting human being" I could very well be telling the truth (so long as I believe they are a horrible person), but doing so in a way that is intended to cause harm.

I think truth in general is a good way to go, as long as it doesn't go against the law in its entirety (do not harm, for example).

Hmm, how about the other way round: can I get offended when you call me Piotr, if you intended to insult me by calling me with my name?
I think if someone gets offended by a comment, we have to consider the comment itself. People can get offended by comments even if the comments were not meant to offend.

I'll use this very discussion as an example, since its right here. In my original statement, I used you in my example. My intentions were not to offend you (and if I did, I apologize), I was just simply using you in the example since you were asking the question.

This brings up the question: Is accidental offense punishable by law?

There would be a victim (sticking with this example, you) but the "criminal" (in this example, me) was not trying to cause harm. I'm curious to how this would play out. I think in these intances, an apology should be administered, but I'm not sure if it would be punishable by law.

However, if my intentions were to cause harm, by calling you out, then yes, you have the right to be offended, and I would be subject to punishment.



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 07:25:49 PM
Is accidental offense punishable by law?

There would be a victim (sticking with this example, you) but the "criminal" (in this example, me) was not trying to cause harm. I'm curious to how this would play out. I think in these intances, an apology should be administered, but I'm not sure if it would be punishable by law.

Oh, but you are sure: 'apology administered' is definitely a punishment, because it is done regardless of the target's will, true or false?



Keyeto
Boss 100
May 11, 2013, 07:31:56 PM
Is accidental offense punishable by law?

There would be a victim (sticking with this example, you) but the "criminal" (in this example, me) was not trying to cause harm. I'm curious to how this would play out. I think in these intances, an apology should be administered, but I'm not sure if it would be punishable by law.

Oh, but you are sure: 'apology administered' is definitely a punishment, because it is done regardless of the target's will, true or false?
True, if in this case we are enforcing the law. I am unsure if we can lawfully do this, however.

I believe the victim has the right to request it, but if there were no harmful intentions, then I don't believe we can enforce it. The law says "No victim, no crime." But I wonder if the reverse is true "If there is a victim, there is a crime."

In a case where someone is offended, but not because somebody else was trying to offend them, can we punish the offender?



Piotr
User 100
May 11, 2013, 07:38:57 PM
Is accidental offense punishable by law?

There would be a victim (sticking with this example, you) but the "criminal" (in this example, me) was not trying to cause harm. I'm curious to how this would play out. I think in these intances, an apology should be administered, but I'm not sure if it would be punishable by law.

Oh, but you are sure: 'apology administered' is definitely a punishment, because it is done regardless of the target's will, true or false?
True, if in this case we are enforcing the law. I am unsure if we can lawfully do this, however.

I believe the victim has the right to request it, but if there were no harmful intentions, then I don't believe we can enforce it. The law says "No victim, no crime." But I wonder if the reverse is true "If there is a victim, there is a crime."

In a case where someone is offended, but not because somebody else was trying to offend them, can we punish the offender?

Too difficult for today, I'll try tomorrow, IMNS ;)



Up
Login
Last

Page 1 of 3

Next