The role of Equipment in WW

I wouldn't really put in equipment; if you put in equipment then this deck morphs into a Puresteel Paladin deck.

I respectfully disagree.  Equipment can help aggro WW decks in the mid-late game when their opponents start pulling out the fatties.  A bit of weaponry doesn't automatically make it a Puresteel  deck.

Quote from: Prophylaxis on November 28, 2011, 01:35:21 AM

I wouldn't really put in equipment; if you put in equipment then this deck morphs into a Puresteel Paladin deck.

I respectfully disagree.  Equipment can help aggro WW decks in the mid-late game when their opponents start pulling out the fatties.  A bit of weaponry doesn't automatically make it a Puresteel  deck.

I would further (with all due respect) disagree. Mana spent on equipment are mana that is not spent casting larger threats. Cheap equipment takes away from dropping earlier threats while large and expendsive equipments are (self implied) large and expendsive. Instead of running equipment in attempt to create larger threats in later game, I would simply add larger threats to bomb the board to follow up my small, fast, creatures (like sun Titan and hero of bladehold as an example)

I like all this respect around here.  I do understand what you're getting at, but with equipment you can always decide whether or not to equip.  You can cast it one turn if you don't have an early threat and then equip on a later turn, or you can cast and equip the same turn mid-late game when you have the mana.  Something you can't do with "larger threats".  In a way, equipment is like leveling, you have control.  If your deck is running many large threats, then is it really "white weenie" anymore?

I like all this respect around here.  I do understand what you're getting at, but with equipment you can always decide whether or not to equip.  You can cast it one turn if you don't have an early threat and then equip on a later turn, or you can cast and equip the same turn mid-late game when you have the mana.  Something you can't do with "larger threats".  In a way, equipment is like leveling, you have control.  If your deck is running many large threats, then is it really "white weenie" anymore?

(more respect coming your way)
Indeed equipment usage is often optional, but if you don't utilize it, it will not make an impact (which is my theme here)
Equipment does not make a large enough impact on the board to be 100% effective. (aside from swords) equipments are not only not so mana efficient, but does not provide an immediate impact on the board. In essence, it "dosent turn the tide."
When you need to play something like an equipment because of the lack of things to play, you are already behind. The last thing you want is to pass a turn not beating up your opponent.

(mad respect back at you!)
To me, WW + equipment plays like BYOM (build your own monster).  Each little guy doesn't turn the tide, nor does each equipment, but when all of your creatures are 1-3 drops, then every time you  cast one of them, you can use all of your mid-game extra mana to turn him into a big hitter.  Plus, if you really have extra mana, you can load up one creature, hit, then move it all to another creature.  I still don't see what's mana inefficient about equipment.

(mad respect back at you!)
To me, WW + equipment plays like BYOM (build your own monster).  Each little guy doesn't turn the tide, nor does each equipment, but when all of your creatures are 1-3 drops, then every time you  cast one of them, you can use all of your mid-game extra mana to turn him into a big hitter.  Plus, if you really have extra mana, you can load up one creature, hit, then move it all to another creature.  I still don't see what's mana inefficient about equipment.

(RESPECT!!)
Mana efficiency is a huge problem when it comes to equipments. Example: spending 6 total mana to give an existing creature +2/2 and intimidate (nim deathmantle) is not as good as slapping down a sun Titan.
Now onto tempo. In an aggressive deckbuild, early pressure is the win strategy. Equipment takes away from that in many ways because that two drop equipment could have been a grand abolisher or that three drop equipment could have been a mirran crusader. Later in the game, mana spent attaching those equipment could have been spent to cast other threats to follow up the early pressure. It would be much preferred to drop a hero of bladehold with four mana than to attach a nim deathmantle to an earlier creature (if it even exsists anymore).
Equipments slows an aggro deck down and allows the opponent to pick up tempo and fight back

(R-E-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means to me! 🎶)

I follow. Thing is. Your not paying 6 mana up front. With equipment, you can pay in installments.  I wouldn't spend any of the first three turns playing anything but one and two drops. But in WW, when you start hitting four and five, you could play a dude and a piece then next turn, pump up someone with a Silver Inlaid Dagger or Darksteel Axe. I'd only use the cheap equipment. I wouldn't bother with Argentum Armor or the mantle here.
WW powers out the low cost guys early and relies, but when your hand runs dry, equipment will still be on the table for the weenies you draw. If you start filling out your deck with 4-6 drops, where are the weenies?

(Respect -> enough)
I get ur point, the thing is, early on in the game, you want to be throwing out creatures like crazy in order to establish board control, not tossing a few creatures in to the fray and some equipments, hoping they accomplish something later.
Tempered steel is an amazing aggro deck because it flings creatures everywhere, the opponent cannot deal with the pressure, then slaps down a tempered steel to win the game (alot of times that isn't even necessary)
We have a similar deck with WW, runs with early board dominance. Equipments counteracts that by holding up valuable early game tempo. Even in the later turns, you would be wanting to throw down the metaphorical "tempered steel" to win the game, not some clunky artifacts that gives slight boosts. You would rather follow through with cards like Geist of saint traft, hero of bladehold, and an angelic overseer to really end the game.
I'm short, equipments are unnecessary in an aggro deck because it slows the deck down in the early game, while being outclassed in the later game. (and/or with better alternatives)

(Random aside: I've noticed that my stupid autocorrect is actually making it look like I can't type. 👿)

One of the things that I like about WW is the consistency.  With a really low curve, you can always be sure that you're churning out dudes even with only two land in play.  One of the drawback to this is that once you've played out your hand, you're relying on your draws and there's not much card advantage in mono-white.  If you are drawing your weenies in the late-game, they are going to be outclassed by your opponent's late-game creatures.

Let's say you have a Silver-Inlaid Dagger and Cobbled Wings in play.  Then you draw Champion of the Parish.  You basically have:

W
(Kicker (1): Champion of the Parish gains Flying)
(Kicker (2): Champion of the Parish gains +3/+0)
1/1

so you can have a W 1/1, a 1W 1/1 flier, 2W 4/1, or a 3W 4/1 flier.  And you don't have to pay it all at once either.  It's like stretching out your mana curve.  I think that you can be even MORE efficient with your mana since you can use every left over untapped land to move or equip a new target.  Every turn you are using every bit of mana.

Now, obviously it is hard to compete with the nigh brokenness that is Sun Titan,  but one Doom Blade and he's gone.  With a bit of the right equipment, every new creature you draw can become a beater.  Also, Sun Titan can play well with the equipment too.  Sun Titan + Demonmail Hauberk + Doomed Traveller = fun!

(with all due respect, etc.) I wish more debates like this took place in the forums. I am learning a lot from your opposing perspectives. And kudos on keeping it civil and impersonal. I think I may create decks based on your discussion and test them out.  Please, continue.

I love a good civil debate. I could be in the wrong on this one, but I think I've made some good points at the very least.

So what's the next debate?

Blackjester, please make a new thread just on debates in general, I'm tired of restarting this one over and over again